Model Comparison 100% sign agreement
Model Editorial Structural Class Conf SETL Theme
claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 +0.55 +0.38 Moderate positive 0.33 0.30 Free Expression & Infrastructure Rights
@cf/meta/llama-3.3-70b-instruct-fp8-fast lite +0.80 ND Strong positive 0.90 0.00 Online Free Speech
@cf/meta/llama-4-scout-17b-16e-instruct lite +0.80 ND Strong positive 0.90 0.00 Free Speech
deepseek/deepseek-v3.2-20251201 +0.31 ND Moderate positive 0.14 Free Expression
claude-haiku-4-5 lite +0.78 ND Strong positive 0.95 0.00 Freedom of expression protection
meta-llama/llama-3.3-70b-instruct:free ND ND
Section claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 @cf/meta/llama-3.3-70b-instruct-fp8-fast lite @cf/meta/llama-4-scout-17b-16e-instruct lite deepseek/deepseek-v3.2-20251201 claude-haiku-4-5 lite meta-llama/llama-3.3-70b-instruct:free
Preamble 0.62 ND ND 0.30 ND ND
Article 1 0.52 ND ND 0.48 ND ND
Article 2 0.55 ND ND 0.20 ND ND
Article 3 0.36 ND ND 0.20 ND ND
Article 4 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 5 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 6 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 7 0.42 ND ND ND ND ND
Article 8 0.55 ND ND ND ND ND
Article 9 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 12 0.40 ND ND 0.47 ND ND
Article 13 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 14 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 15 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 16 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 17 0.60 ND ND ND ND ND
Article 18 0.60 ND ND 0.40 ND ND
Article 19 0.57 ND ND 1.00 ND ND
Article 20 0.30 ND ND 0.48 ND ND
Article 21 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 22 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 23 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 24 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 25 ND ND ND ND ND ND
Article 26 0.34 ND ND ND ND ND
Article 27 ND ND ND 0.20 ND ND
Article 28 0.65 ND ND 0.20 ND ND
Article 29 0.40 ND ND 0.55 ND ND
Article 30 0.70 ND ND 0.30 ND ND
+0.55 ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is (www.eff.org S:+0.38 )
1460 points by mantiq 915 days ago | 1256 comments on HN | Moderate positive Contested Editorial · v3.7 · 2026-02-28 10:39:28 0
Summary Free Expression & Infrastructure Rights Advocates
This EFF article advocates against ISP-level content policing by arguing that infrastructure operators—particularly Tier 1 ISPs that function as critical chokepoints—should not become arbiters of speech, even when the targeted content is genuinely harmful. Using Hurricane Electric's blocking of Kiwi Farms as a case study, the author contends that infrastructure censorship sets dangerous precedents ('ratchet effects') that will inevitably be exploited to censor legitimate speech. The article proposes law enforcement resources, privacy legislation targeting data brokers, and principled infrastructure neutrality as preferable approaches, positioning the preservation of UDHR protections as the primary human rights concern.
Article Heatmap
Preamble: +0.62 — Preamble P Article 1: +0.52 — Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood 1 Article 2: +0.55 — Non-Discrimination 2 Article 3: +0.36 — Life, Liberty, Security 3 Article 4: ND — No Slavery Article 4: No Data — No Slavery 4 Article 5: ND — No Torture Article 5: No Data — No Torture 5 Article 6: ND — Legal Personhood Article 6: No Data — Legal Personhood 6 Article 7: +0.42 — Equality Before Law 7 Article 8: +0.55 — Right to Remedy 8 Article 9: ND — No Arbitrary Detention Article 9: No Data — No Arbitrary Detention 9 Article 10: ND — Fair Hearing Article 10: No Data — Fair Hearing 10 Article 11: ND — Presumption of Innocence Article 11: No Data — Presumption of Innocence 11 Article 12: +0.40 — Privacy 12 Article 13: ND — Freedom of Movement Article 13: No Data — Freedom of Movement 13 Article 14: ND — Asylum Article 14: No Data — Asylum 14 Article 15: ND — Nationality Article 15: No Data — Nationality 15 Article 16: ND — Marriage & Family Article 16: No Data — Marriage & Family 16 Article 17: +0.60 — Property 17 Article 18: +0.60 — Freedom of Thought 18 Article 19: +0.57 — Freedom of Expression 19 Article 20: +0.30 — Assembly & Association 20 Article 21: ND — Political Participation Article 21: No Data — Political Participation 21 Article 22: ND — Social Security Article 22: No Data — Social Security 22 Article 23: ND — Work & Equal Pay Article 23: No Data — Work & Equal Pay 23 Article 24: ND — Rest & Leisure Article 24: No Data — Rest & Leisure 24 Article 25: ND — Standard of Living Article 25: No Data — Standard of Living 25 Article 26: +0.34 — Education 26 Article 27: ND — Cultural Participation Article 27: No Data — Cultural Participation 27 Article 28: +0.65 — Social & International Order 28 Article 29: +0.40 — Duties to Community 29 Article 30: +0.70 — No Destruction of Rights 30
Negative Neutral Positive No Data
Aggregates
Editorial Mean +0.55 Structural Mean +0.38
Weighted Mean +0.53 Unweighted Mean +0.51
Max +0.70 Article 30 Min +0.30 Article 20
Signal 15 No Data 16
Volatility 0.12 (Medium)
Negative 0 Channels E: 0.6 S: 0.4
SETL +0.30 Editorial-dominant
FW Ratio 51% 28 facts · 27 inferences
Evidence 33% coverage
5H 8M 2L 16 ND
Theme Radar
Foundation Security Legal Privacy & Movement Personal Expression Economic & Social Cultural Order & Duties Foundation: 0.56 (3 articles) Security: 0.36 (1 articles) Legal: 0.48 (2 articles) Privacy & Movement: 0.40 (1 articles) Personal: 0.60 (2 articles) Expression: 0.43 (2 articles) Economic & Social: 0.00 (0 articles) Cultural: 0.34 (1 articles) Order & Duties: 0.58 (3 articles)
HN Discussion 20 top-level · 30 replies
jqpabc123 2023-08-29 21:18 UTC link
Maybe Hurricane needs to police it's own network first.

My web server constantly receives malicious probes and invalid requests from Hurricane owned IPs.

How does a malicious actor get direct access to a Tier 1 address? The only way I can see is by being inside their facilities.

mortenjorck 2023-08-29 21:19 UTC link
It's heartening to see the EFF come out sticking to principles on this in a time when other organizations of their stature have not.

I hate to say it, but I could easily imagine something like the ACLU opposing the EFF on this.

explanatorygap 2023-08-29 21:46 UTC link
EFF is on the wrong side of this, just as they were on the wrong side of the debates about what to do about spam email back in the day. They're committed to the view that the only acceptable place to block any flow of information (which they define very broadly) is at the receiving user's end and that the end user must personally opt-in. This is completely at odds with the last 30 years of experience on the internet and shows that they've learned very little about how bad actors will abuse systems of that sort and degrade the experience for everyone else.
pseudo0 2023-08-29 21:57 UTC link
Too bad they didn't touch on the net neutrality issues at play here. Washington passed a state level net neutrality law, and KF might end up being the test case. They have filed a complaint with the AG and are waiting for a response.

https://archive.is/Je241

CM30 2023-08-29 22:07 UTC link
I agree, we've got far too many entities that should just be 'dumb pipes' trying to play moral police at the moment, and it's a very worrying situation when it comes to free speech on the internet. Cloudflare is an often brought up example, as are payment processors like Visa and Mastercard and app stores like the iOS and Play Stores, but ISPs trying to block traffic for a site that's not actually illegal feels like a step even further than that.

It feels like private companies are de facto writing the laws about what's allowed online and in society right now, and that it's almost become a loophole for censoring free speech on a whim.

And while the site in question here is ethically bankrupt in basically every way, it doesn't seem too far fetched to assume the same thing could (and potentially will) happen for sites many more people agree with because someone/some group at an ISP doesn't like them or think they should be accessible.

jauer 2023-08-29 22:50 UTC link
Yawn. Non-telco(*1) Tier 1 provider declines to carry routes for an entity they don't like. Happens all the time. This is why you buy from a Tier 2 instead and bypass DFZ(*2) politics.

Drop routes from spammers: Spamhaus DROP list. Drop routes from DDoS sources? All the time.

Even Google wasn't reachable from Cogent over IPv6 for years because of a business dispute. For all we know someone working at HE was targeted by KF and this is a security response (also generally allowed even if you are a regulated provider).

*1: Cogent & HE thread the needle around being a common carrier (they don't sell voice or TDM service) or a broadband provider, which is why KF's WA state complaint will fail (WA's law only applies to mass-market retail providers, which HE is not).

*2: Tier 1 does not mean "best carrier" it means "carrier that doesn't pay another carrier for routes." DFZ literally means default-free zone as in they don't have a default route to another provider.

IncogNET 2023-08-29 22:51 UTC link
Glad to see this. Hurricane Electric has behaved in such an incredibly unprofessional manner regarding this entire ordeal. It began here: https://twitter.com/IncogNetLLC/status/1685359845505957888

We filed a complaint with the Washington state AG over their actions. HE's response was more or less technically obtuse garbage and, "You're not our direct customer" (paraphrasing, of course).

So what they did, was take it upon themselves to prevent access to an entire /36 subnet of IPv6 that our customer had announced downstream of us. Not once did an abuse report get sent to us, or our upstream from HE. Nor did we receive any credible abuse reports sent to us directly from those upset that the site exists. Meanwhile, this actually has no direct impact on the website in question's existence as their opposition has learned by now, it's never been truly offline. Just temporarily blocked from certain ISPs.

From an ISP point of view, it's worrying that a transit provider like HE can arbitrarily cancel a customer of yours, or a customer of a customer (, etc) over legal, protected speech. So, from a business standpoint, what does HE have to gain? The people complaining about the site aren't their target market, they're mostly Twitch streamers, Twitter personalities and folks who have a following on popular platforms that already exist. They're not the types to be self-hosting a streaming service who'll need rackspace and transit. So, what is there to gain by bending the knee to them? The safest business decision would be to remain neutral, respond to law enforcement requests if presented with one, and otherwise do the job you're paid to do. The worst business decision is moderating the content of downstream customers, which is what we're seeing now.

autoexec 2023-08-30 00:52 UTC link
Once again the EFF is proving that they'll stand behind their principles and defend freedom even for those they disagree with. They are one of the few remaining organizations that I feel I can support without reservation. Taking this difficult position isn't easy, but it is the right thing to do and I'm so glad to see that the EFF has the strength to do it in the face of growing opposition to free speech ideals.
tjpnz 2023-08-30 01:23 UTC link
I would encourage those interested to read up on the individual behind the ISP harassment campaign and what might actually be motivating them to do it. That it's being done to protect trans people is highly disingenuous.
ryan-c 2023-08-30 01:41 UTC link
Where was the EFF when ISPs were null routing everything on Spamhaus's DROP list?

https://www.spamhaus.org/drop/

ApolloFortyNine 2023-08-30 01:41 UTC link
>To put it even more simply: When a person uses a room in a house to engage in illegal or just terrible activity, we don’t call on the electric company to cut off the light and heat to the entire house, or the post office to stop delivering mail.

LA actually did this during covid to shut off water for homes being accused of holding parties during covid.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/06/us/los-angeles-shuts-off-powe...

I don't agree with it, but just showing that some people have decided the ends justify the means essentially.

mamborambo 2023-08-30 02:11 UTC link
There is an old joke about the difference between a service provider and a "service preventer". Often the difference is the type of power we allow them to have over the users.

There are many domains of modern society that serve specific service roles, that should never have been given over-reaching power to also monitor and judge outside of a court order, but they do.

Finance used to have secrecy but no anymore, tax is now open book. Transportation and mobility is checked and prechecked. Free speech is being eroded both by snowflakes and copyright trolls. The slippery slope has no boundary and rolls into an avalanche.

p1mrx 2023-08-30 02:18 UTC link
Interesting, so there actually was a story behind this unusual HN thread a few weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37060597
quickthrower2 2023-08-30 03:04 UTC link
> To put it even more simply: When a person uses a room in a house to engage in illegal or just terrible activity, we don’t call on the electric company to cut off the light and heat to the entire house, or the post office to stop delivering mail. We know that this will backfire in the long run. Instead, we go after the bad guys themselves and hold them accountable.

I like this analogy it hits it home.

It really should take a court order to block sites based on a legal reason, and you probably don’t need to get the backbone to do it, it could be done by the ISP then escalate up if needed.

yashap 2023-08-30 03:55 UTC link
I agree, and I’m extremely far from a free speech absolutist - to a level that I’m sure most at HN would disagree with. I completely believe in limits to free speech on a case by case basis, online and otherwise. For example, I think HN would be a worse place without moderation, same with Reddit, I think my home country Canada would be a worse place without hate speech laws, etc.

Not against limits to free speech online, but I think ISPs are the wrong layer for them. Governments can go after specific sites carrying out illegal activities, online communities can moderate themselves to avoid devolving into 4chan, but ISPs shouldn’t make censorship decisions, it’s just too broad a reach/impact for a private company.

mnd999 2023-08-30 05:49 UTC link
More nativity from the EFF, I dont think they live in the real world. It’s never worked that at and never will. Why? Because the systems become unusable for everyone.

A simple and very very old example is email. Even back in the 1990s days of the Internet, we had spam on email and if your reputable isp caught you spamming you’d be in trouble. Same with shitposting on usenet.

Sure there are nuances to consider as to what providers should do and what they should not, but like a lot of things this is a hard problem. The ‘simple’ solutions presented here and in other places will not solve it.

kristjank 2023-08-30 08:26 UTC link
I hate how Kiwi Farms has become the benchmark for so many important concepts relating to internet freedom. As much as I think the world would be a better place with them being forever banished to the onion realm, I can't really defend HE and other service providers drafting their own visions of internet code of ethics, then enforcing them on other people's traffic. A smaller ISP would probably start losing business over such concerns, but HE is so large, almost all of internet traffic touches them at some point, so their ability to moderate is not even impacted by their business decisions.

Defending a company's AUP/ToS is reasonable when the company is reasonably sized, but HE is clearly over that limit. When a company gets too big to fail (banking also comes to mind) due to providing crucial societal function, there should be very strict restrictions on what they're allowed to moderate. This also applies to big industry conglomerates (oil, pharmaceuticals).

Another part of the problem seem to be various lazy officials not prosecuting these sites on the basis of obvious crimes involved in their operation.

I really appreciate EFF defending the obviously neutral approach here.

bArray 2023-08-30 10:29 UTC link
> That’s why EFF has long argued that we must “protect the stack” by saying no to infrastructure providers policing internet content.

I agree with this, but you need to understand what you agree to. It's not just the content you want to see - it's also the content you don't want to see. It's the freedom of the most extreme content imaginable - CP, snuff, murder, doxxing, drugs, etc, etc.

People will experience severe issues as a result, but there are other things that can be done:

1. Individuals can do more to protect themselves. We have AI now that can quite accurately detect what is in an image or video, it's entirely feasible to do live content filtering.

2. We need to protect the most vulnerable in our societies. We don't give whiskey to a 5 year old, and we shouldn't give unfiltered internet to a 5 year old. This also extends to vulnerable adults. If you receive government assistance (money/drugs) for a mental disability, a filtered version of the internet should be available to you.

3. The punishment for filtering without permission should be severe enough that it's not just a tax. People really need to be held accountable, otherwise they will just pay the toll and be done with it.

evantbyrne 2023-08-30 14:20 UTC link
Being able to choose which private entities your business materially supports is a natural consequence of freedom. As long as ISPs are private businesses, their operators will and should have basic freedoms. The fact that _people_ are dropping KF left and right is just normal and healthy socialization at work. Lack of competition with American ISPs and whether they should be public utilities are real concerns, but fundamentally has nothing to do with KF being widely regarded as a flaming turd.
sequoia 2023-08-30 16:23 UTC link
I heard a podcast interviewing the site owner[0], hearing his perspective was interesting though I don't know how much of what he says is true either. He raised one very salient point, however, which was that ISPs probably didn't start dropping him out of nowhere. He asserts that there is a highly persistent and technically knowledgeable party threatening ISPs & other providers by going after the provider's other customers to pressure the provider to drop kiwifarms. I don't know what the truth is but it is odd that kiwifarms keeps getting knocked offline as neonazi forums etc. stay online.

I don't know much about kiwifarms, never visited it, but given the claims in this post (that it's "uniquely awful," that the site itself is victimizing people) I think it would be helpful if the authors would link to some context/evidence. Maybe it's all true in this case, but I've been on the internet long enough to know that believing grave accusations without evidence is a very bad rookie mistake.

0: https://www.heterodorx.com/podcast/episode-107-how-the-inter...

brailsafe 2023-08-29 21:50 UTC link
In what way is it at odds with the last 30 years of the internet? You seem to accept that as a fact, but I'd definitely agree with the eff.
ibizaman 2023-08-29 21:53 UTC link
If it’s truly the first time Tier 1 blocking happens, I don’t see how the EFF can be at odds with history.
gorwell 2023-08-29 22:09 UTC link
Censors made the same argument with the Printing Press and since time immemorial. Censorship has always been on the wrong side of history and it still is.

Speaking of abusing systems, censors end up being the worst bad guys who imagine themselves as the good guys protecting you from the bad guys.

EFF understands the long history of this issue.

yanderekko 2023-08-29 22:31 UTC link
At least payment providers can plausibly point to financial risks and legal concerns as why they engage in what comes off as moral policing. It's pretty clear that any similar claim on HE's part would be pretextual.

>It feels like private companies are de facto writing the laws about what's allowed online and in society right now, and that it's almost become a loophole for censoring free speech on a whim.

"Feels like"? This is clearly embraced as a necessary step to preserve democracy by a small-but-powerful segment of population.

toast0 2023-08-29 22:35 UTC link
There's two issues here:

a) should online speech be policed

b) if so, who should do it?

We don't let phone companies police the content of phone calls, and we don't let delivery services police the content of letters/packages, so why would we let ISPs police the content of network packets?

Exceptions exist: you can't send most live animals by mail, packages are subject to inspection at customs borders, etc. But any sort of monitoring of content would need either clear evidence of danger, signs of abusing the network, or court involvement.

If this content is so terrible that it deserves to be removed from the internet by any means necessary, shouldn't the process be that a court of competent jurisdiction should be able to issue an order requiring the site to be taken down. If the proprietors of the site bring it up through another ISP, not a party to the original order, a new order could be issued as well as holding the proprietors in contempt, presumably.

Jurisdiction issues on content are hairy, but jurisdiction issues on ISP connections are easy, the connections happen in specific locations, and you can order the connection severed at either end of the connection (as well as in between the ends).

amiga386 2023-08-29 22:35 UTC link
Indeed, the ACLU have lost their way.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210608004853/https://www.nytim...

> the organization finds itself riven with internal tensions over whether it has stepped away from a founding principle — unwavering devotion to the First Amendment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union...

> Beginning in 2017, some individuals claimed the ACLU was reducing its support of unpopular free speech (specifically by declining to defend speech made by conservatives) in favor of identity politics, political correctness, and progressivism.

akira2501 2023-08-29 23:03 UTC link
> It feels like private companies are de facto writing the laws about what's allowed online and in society right now, and that it's almost become a loophole for censoring free speech on a whim.

This is why monopoly power is dangerous as without it you could just move to a more tolerant competitor and be on with your business. The courts almost never consider the "secondary markets" that exist around these behemoths, and how all of our interests and independence are significantly damaged by allowing these monopolies to merge into existence.

Of course, even this feels like the conversation they would _like_ you to have, because the other side I never see considered is what does it take to buy an "indulgence" from these companies? Is it easy? Is it often done? How often are these "scions of social justice" actually just "turning a blind eye?"

gorwell 2023-08-29 23:07 UTC link
That's right. Authoritarian censors found an exploit. They couldn't use the government to clamp down on civil liberties because of the pesky constitution, so they invaded the administrative layer of big tech. It's not the engineers who built the web and these companies with Silicon Valley ideals. They were never intended to be used this way and are secretly horrified.

> play moral police at the moment

Moral fashion police

mid-kid 2023-08-29 23:11 UTC link
> Happens all the time.

As this is the first time I hear of this, I'm curious. Do you have any examples?

remram 2023-08-29 23:24 UTC link
Hurricane Electric operates tunnelbroker.net, a free SIT tunnel to provide IPv6 connectivity. All those clients (like me) will be using a HE-owned IPv6 address.

They also offer dedicated servers and colocation services: http://he.net/colocation.html

They are not only a transit provider, in fact they wouldn't need to own IPs at all if they were.

commandlinefan 2023-08-29 23:28 UTC link
> how bad actors will abuse systems

I’ve seen both ends of the spectrum - I remember Usenet, that had no moderation at all, and having to wade through a sea of spam, wishing somebody would get rid of it. But then I saw what reddit moderation turned into… I’ll take the spam, thanks. The spammers are bad actors, but moderators actually become evil actors.

ehhthing 2023-08-30 00:46 UTC link
I'm not entirely sure about this but I believe that HE may have been null routing rather than just dropping routes.
dumpsterdiver 2023-08-30 00:54 UTC link
Oh wow, I didn't realize which "hurricane" we were talking about until you said that. Years ago I wrote a script that automatically updated firewall rules to block apparently malicious IP blocks (based upon observable behavior as well as IP reputation), and Hurricane was consistently near the top of the offender list. I recall finding it interesting at the time how the various Hurricane servers showing up in our logs reminded of an actual hurricane.
aaomidi 2023-08-30 01:55 UTC link
When I was at let’s encrypt, there were so many people outside that expected us to be the morality police of the internet.

Like, no. Certificate Authorities exist because the web fucking sucks. Not because they want to be gate keepers.

koolba 2023-08-30 01:56 UTC link
> I don't agree with it, but just showing that some people have decided the ends justify the means essentially.

I’m convinced they never truly cared about the ends.

It’s the more basic rule that power corrupts. Those actions were all for show and it wasn’t to protect anybody. It was purely to showcase power.

dietr1ch 2023-08-30 02:10 UTC link
What an awful example from the third world. What's next? The IRS forces doctors not to treat some patients in ER because they may owe taxes?

Access to water and medical attention are human rights, no matter how awful the humans may be according to the acting officers.

itsnotabtmoney 2023-08-30 02:32 UTC link
> The safest business decision would be to remain neutral, respond to law enforcement requests if presented with one, and otherwise do the job you're paid to do.

Have you considered that it might not be about money? What if the decision-makers and operators of Hurricane Electric just have certain people they just want to censor, and use their position to do it at the expense of money. Money is just a means to the end, and if they're getting to that end by foregoing money in business rather than spending it, that seems logical enough to me.

And if the government is ideologically aligned with the operators of the company, you won't find any protection from them. And in many cases it's just the government and large companies working hand-in-glove to get to their ends. Some political outsiders threatening your political monopoly? Pull some strings and have their social media accounts removed and banking taken away; but there's no recourse since "muh private company" even though they're getting direct orders from government officials.

So a good reason to be on the side of "free political speech" is that we don't want the people with the most money controlling what we can and can't say, and we don't want the government to have free reign to shut down criticism or challenges.

throwaway2037 2023-08-30 03:20 UTC link

    We filed a complaint with the Washington state AG over their actions.
When? Did anything happen? I don't expect this would be a priority for the attorney general.
cf141q5325 2023-08-30 03:49 UTC link
Here the Glenn Greenwald post from the time of the Kiwifarms debacle is worth referencing.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1567292900312064000

>But the worst is watching people whose job title in corporate HR Departments is "journalist" take the lead in agitating for censorship. They exploit the platforms of corporate giants to pioneer increasingly dangerous means of banning dissenters. These are the authoritarians.

Its especially despicable if it happens consciously as a means to an end. Signaling towards a common enemy is highly profitable in a tribalism ridden society. Doing this despite an understanding of the risk it entails can hardly be described as anything but malice.

I can only think of imploring people to read Meerloos "Rape of the mind" about the existential risk totalitarian systems pose. And even if someone already went full Stalinist thinking the ends justify the means, its worth mentioning that its a self destructive delusion. It cant work and the revolution eats its children reliably. Be it the SA or the red guard, they always end as the victims of the monster they created. Unfortunately the rest of society is then stuck in the dystopian nightmare these delusional maniacs created.

edit: On this note, Arte recently had a documentary about the Chinese gulag system https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/106702-001-A/china-s-concentra...

edit1: The only one saving you from this fate is yourself. So maybe dont put it off till you are in prison.

>In the same text, Martsinkevich said he’d finally read Alexander Solzhenitsyn's “The Gulag Archipelago” for the first time. “If I’d read ‘Gulag Archipelago’ before I sat down to write ‘Restrukt,’ I wouldn’t have even started it!” he confessed.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/09/17/in-the-end-it-doesn-...

EarlKing 2023-08-30 04:07 UTC link
> some people have decided the ends justify the means essentially

...and it's long past time they were told in no uncertain terms that the proletariat has had enough of this bourgeoisie nonsense. Laws exists for a reason. No one should be subject to the whims of bourgeoisie overlords. Just because some imbecile believes they have a great idea and thinks it should be forced upon others does not make it so. This is such an important point that there are entire religions built around it.

I didn't think I'd live to see it, but I'm proud, delighted, and amused to see that people are finally starting to wake up to the notion that maybe the rule of law is a good idea and should apply to everybody.

dee-bee 2023-08-30 04:41 UTC link
> Once again the EFF is proving that they'll stand behind their principles and defend freedom even for those they disagree with. They are one of the few remaining organizations that I feel I can support without reservation.

I find this attitude very odd. Surely some disagreements indicate a violation of their principles. What would the principles be worth otherwise? Surely this is the paradox of tolerance in a different package. Why not instead model communication as a bilateral contract?

cf141q5325 2023-08-30 05:59 UTC link
Alleging nativity when at the same time championing just simply banning stuff you dont like, the consequences be dammed, might be funny, but this discussion has too high stakes for undisclosed satire. Still made me chuckle though.

edit: Apparently not satire. Quite sorry to hear, that was me giving the benefit of the doubt. That leaves either stupidity (not realizing the consequences), malice (not caring) or me overlooking something.

So, how do checks and balances for mob justice look like? Other then just meaning well and being the good guys? Pretty sure somebody could elaborate if it was really just me overlooking something.

charcircuit 2023-08-30 06:10 UTC link
>Because the systems become unusable for everyone.

In this case there is no spam or resource exhaustion going on in this case. People are visiting a forum, posting things, and viewing text / images / video files posted by other users.

What makes things unusable is when you want to follow links on the web you need to use VPNs in order to route your traffic through the correct ISPs that will properly route your traffic. There could be a future where different T1 ISPs block different sites so there is no way to browse the entire internet using a single ISP, but instead you have to cleverly pick a different ISP for each destination IP to get it properly routed.

habinero 2023-08-30 06:24 UTC link
Yeah, that's not going to happen. KF is not a Washington state LLC.
jquery 2023-08-30 06:33 UTC link
IMO, practically speaking, payment processors are a much bigger headache than anything else. It's hard to end-run around them and run any kind of successful business. It's really weird how much power they have to play moral police, even deciding what kind of porn is "ok" and what isn't.
chonkerz 2023-08-30 06:37 UTC link
The EFF is arguing here that companies should not take anything down and instead rely on the government to dictate what shouldn't be allowed. This is absolutely ridiculous. Imagine being such a free speech advocate that you say something like this.
chonkerz 2023-08-30 06:38 UTC link
The EFF is arguing that companies should lose their right to withdraw service due to TOS violation, unless the government says it's ok. This is as anti-freedom as it gets. What is wrong with them
chonkerz 2023-08-30 06:55 UTC link
The authorities already said they didn't care and kiwifarms should work it out directly with HE
chonkerz 2023-08-30 07:02 UTC link
Kiwifarms makes shell companies so the hosting provider is a confederate and the only way to terminate service is to go over their head and complain to the upstream. You can even see "their hosting provider" posting weird political astroturfing in this thread.

Spammers do this trick all the time to buy some plausible deniability.

chonkerz 2023-08-30 07:04 UTC link
Probably realizing that it's reasonable for ISPs to not want to get buried in email spam.
Editorial Channel
What the content says
+0.75
Article 19 Freedom of Expression
High Advocacy Framing
Editorial
+0.75
SETL
+0.58

This is the article's primary engagement. Strong defense of expression rights principle with two key nuances: (1) explicitly disclaims sympathy for harmful content while defending infrastructure neutrality, (2) proposes law enforcement accountability as compatible with expression protection. Argues ISPs should not police speech 'no matter how awful it is.'

+0.70
Preamble Preamble
High Advocacy Framing
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
+0.37

Content frames internet infrastructure censorship as a human rights issue grounded in universal dignity and equal rights. Explicitly invokes EFF's historical experience defending speakers across political spectrums facing censorship.

+0.70
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Strong engagement with protection against destruction of rights. Article explicitly warns that ISP censorship precedents will be reused against other speakers, creating a 'ratchet effect' that destroys future UDHR protections. Core argument is preventing erosion of rights.

+0.65
Article 2 Non-Discrimination
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.65
SETL
+0.40

Article directly engages non-discrimination by warning that infrastructure censorship precedents enable discriminatory targeting of disfavored groups, using abortion access restriction example.

+0.65
Article 8 Right to Remedy
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.65
SETL
+0.40

Strong engagement with right to remedy. Article diagnoses lack of law enforcement resources as root cause of pressure for corporate censorship, and calls for giving law enforcement 'resources and societal mandate' to enforce existing laws.

+0.65
Article 28 Social & International Order
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.65
SETL
ND

Strong engagement with institutional solutions to realize rights. Article proposes constructive reform: strong data privacy laws targeting data brokers, law enforcement resource allocation, privacy legislation. Argues infrastructure should enable rather than enforce social order.

+0.60
Article 1 Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
+0.35

Article engages with equality principle by warning that monopolistic Tier 1 ISPs create unequal access conditions where some speakers can be arbitrarily blocked. Argues for equal protection of infrastructure access.

+0.60
Article 17 Property
Medium Framing
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Article implicitly engages property/resource rights by framing concern about infrastructure control as a form of concentrated power. Warns against allowing ISPs to become exclusive gatekeepers.

+0.60
Article 18 Freedom of Thought
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Article defends freedom of thought and conscience by arguing for infrastructure neutrality across political spectrum. EFF's history of assisting speakers 'across various political spectrums' reflects commitment to diverse thought.

+0.50
Article 7 Equality Before Law
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.50
SETL
+0.32

Article argues for law enforcement and courts as proper arbiters of online conduct, emphasizing equal protection under law rather than corporate enforcement. Advocates for institutional legal processes.

+0.40
Article 3 Life, Liberty, Security
Medium Framing
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
+0.20

Article acknowledges serious threats to personal security (doxxing, harassment, documented deaths) from Kiwi Farms while arguing infrastructure-level censorship is not the appropriate remedy.

+0.40
Article 12 Privacy
Medium Framing
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
ND

Article proposes 'strong data privacy laws that target...data brokers whose services help enable doxxing' as structural solution to abuse. Recognizes privacy as protective mechanism against personal harm.

+0.40
Article 29 Duties to Community
Medium Framing
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
ND

Article acknowledges community and corporate duties regarding harmful speech ('We fully support criminal and civil liability') but argues these should be exercised through accountable legal processes, not unilateral corporate enforcement.

+0.30
Article 20 Assembly & Association
Low Framing
Editorial
+0.30
SETL
ND

Article references marginalized forums and speakers needing protection from infrastructure-level censorship, tangentially engaging assembly and association rights.

+0.30
Article 26 Education
Low Framing
Editorial
+0.30
SETL
-0.20

Article references access to health information as content at risk under infrastructure censorship precedents, tangentially engaging education/information access rights.

ND
Article 4 No Slavery

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 5 No Torture

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 6 Legal Personhood

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 9 No Arbitrary Detention

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 10 Fair Hearing

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 11 Presumption of Innocence

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 13 Freedom of Movement

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 14 Asylum

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 15 Nationality

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 16 Marriage & Family

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 21 Political Participation

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 22 Social Security

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 25 Standard of Living

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 27 Cultural Participation

Not engaged in this content.

Structural Channel
What the site does
Element Modifier Affects Note
Legal & Terms
Privacy +0.25
Article 12 Article 17
Domain mission centers on privacy protection. EFF maintains Privacy Badger and Surveillance Self-Defense tools. Strong track record of privacy advocacy.
Terms of Service +0.05
Article 29
Standard TOS language; no significant human rights restrictions observed.
Identity & Mission
Mission +0.28
Article 1 Article 19 Article 20
EFF explicitly champions free speech, privacy, and digital rights. Mission statement aligned with UDHR values.
Editorial Code +0.12
Article 19
Editorial independence evident; no editorial policy discovered that undermines human rights discourse.
Ownership +0.08
Article 19 Article 25
Nonprofit 501(c)(3) structure; no profit-driven ownership conflicts observed.
Access & Distribution
Access Model +0.15
Article 19 Article 26
Content freely accessible; no paywall or access restrictions.
Ad/Tracking -0.08
Article 12 Article 17
Piwik analytics tracking present (anon-stats.eff.org); minor privacy concern despite anonymization claims.
Accessibility +0.10
Article 26 Article 27
Site appears functional and navigable; no apparent accessibility barriers detected.
+0.50
Preamble Preamble
High Advocacy Framing
Structural
+0.50
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.37

EFF site operates as a nonprofit mission-driven organization providing freely accessible content and advocacy tools, structurally supporting the preamble's vision of universal rights.

+0.40
Article 1 Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood
Medium Advocacy
Structural
+0.40
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.35

EFF's nonprofit structure and non-discriminatory content access model support equality principles.

+0.40
Article 2 Non-Discrimination
Medium Advocacy
Structural
+0.40
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.40

Site's open access model and EFF's mission statement oppose discrimination.

+0.40
Article 8 Right to Remedy
High Advocacy
Structural
+0.40
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.40

EFF's advocacy for institutional reform supports access to justice mechanisms.

+0.40
Article 26 Education
Low Framing
Structural
+0.40
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
-0.20

EFF site provides freely accessible information and educational tools supporting access to knowledge.

+0.30
Article 3 Life, Liberty, Security
Medium Framing
Structural
+0.30
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.20

EFF site operates as advocacy platform; structural engagement with security is indirect.

+0.30
Article 7 Equality Before Law
Medium Advocacy
Structural
+0.30
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.32

EFF's advocacy for legal remedy supports institutional due process.

+0.30
Article 19 Freedom of Expression
High Advocacy Framing
Structural
+0.30
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.58

EFF site freely distributes speech-protection tools (Privacy Badger, Surveillance Self-Defense) and advocacy content with no paywall.

ND
Article 4 No Slavery

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 5 No Torture

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 6 Legal Personhood

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 9 No Arbitrary Detention

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 10 Fair Hearing

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 11 Presumption of Innocence

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 12 Privacy
Medium Framing

Not engaged at structural level.

ND
Article 13 Freedom of Movement

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 14 Asylum

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 15 Nationality

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 16 Marriage & Family

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 17 Property
Medium Framing

Not engaged at structural level.

ND
Article 18 Freedom of Thought
Medium Advocacy

Not engaged at structural level.

ND
Article 20 Assembly & Association
Low Framing

Not engaged at structural level.

ND
Article 21 Political Participation

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 22 Social Security

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 25 Standard of Living

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 27 Cultural Participation

Not engaged in this content.

ND
Article 28 Social & International Order
High Advocacy

Not engaged at structural level.

ND
Article 29 Duties to Community
Medium Framing

Not engaged at structural level.

ND
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights
High Advocacy

Not engaged at structural level.

Supplementary Signals
How this content communicates, beyond directional lean. Learn more
Epistemic Quality
How well-sourced and evidence-based is this content?
0.65 medium claims
Sources
0.6
Evidence
0.7
Uncertainty
0.7
Purpose
0.8
Propaganda Flags
1 manipulative rhetoric technique found
1 techniques detected
appeal to fear
The article argues that once Hurricane Electric sets a precedent for ISP-level content policing, 'more pressure from other quarters will follow, and they won't all share your values.' Illustrated with concrete example of abortion restriction.
Emotional Tone
Emotional character: positive/negative, intensity, authority
measured
Valence
+0.3
Arousal
0.4
Dominance
0.6
Transparency
Does the content identify its author and disclose interests?
0.67
✓ Author ✓ Conflicts
More signals: context, framing & audience
Solution Orientation
Does this content offer solutions or only describe problems?
0.47 mixed
Reader Agency
0.5
Stakeholder Voice
Whose perspectives are represented in this content?
0.30 6 perspectives
Speaks: institution
About: corporationinstitutiongovernmentmarginalized
Temporal Framing
Is this content looking backward, at the present, or forward?
prospective short term
Geographic Scope
What geographic area does this content cover?
national
United States
Complexity
How accessible is this content to a general audience?
moderate medium jargon general
Longitudinal · 5 evals
+1 0 −1 HN
Audit Trail 24 entries
2026-02-28 10:39 model_divergence Cross-model spread 0.34 exceeds threshold (5 models) - -
2026-02-28 10:39 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5-20251001: +0.53 (Moderate positive)
2026-02-28 01:38 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is - -
2026-02-28 01:35 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-28 01:34 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-28 01:34 dlq_replay DLQ message 97613 replayed to LLAMA_QUEUE: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is - -
2026-02-28 00:05 eval_success Light evaluated: Strong positive (0.80) - -
2026-02-28 00:05 eval Evaluated by llama-3.3-70b-wai: +0.80 (Strong positive)
2026-02-27 19:07 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is - -
2026-02-27 19:05 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-27 19:04 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-27 19:03 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-27 19:03 dlq_auto_replay DLQ auto-replay: message 97608 re-enqueued - -
2026-02-27 16:17 rater_auto_enable Model llama-4-scout-wai auto-re-enabled after successful probe - -
2026-02-27 16:17 eval_success Light evaluated: Strong positive (0.80) - -
2026-02-27 16:17 eval Evaluated by llama-4-scout-wai: +0.80 (Strong positive)
2026-02-27 16:01 eval_success Evaluated: Moderate positive (0.46) - -
2026-02-27 16:01 eval Evaluated by deepseek-v3.2: +0.46 (Moderate positive) 11,098 tokens
2026-02-27 16:01 rater_validation_warn Validation warnings for model deepseek-v3.2: 0W 50R - -
2026-02-27 13:12 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is - -
2026-02-27 13:09 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-27 13:08 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-27 13:07 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-27 13:03 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5: +0.78 (Strong positive)