+0.65 Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians (www.zdnet.com S:-0.05 )
741 points by afrcnc 1987 days ago | 613 comments on HN | Strong positive Contested Editorial · v3.7 · 2026-02-28 14:07:24 0
Summary Workplace Discrimination & Equality Advocates
This commentary documents systematic caste-based discrimination against Dalit tech workers in Silicon Valley, centring on a lawsuit against Cisco and testimonies from over 250 affected individuals. The article strongly advocates for recognition of caste discrimination as a human rights violation and for workplace equality protections, explicitly exposing how the Indian caste system persists and causes material harm within the supposedly meritocratic US tech industry.
Article Heatmap
Preamble: +0.80 — Preamble P Article 1: +0.80 — Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood 1 Article 2: +0.90 — Non-Discrimination 2 Article 3: +0.60 — Life, Liberty, Security 3 Article 4: ND — No Slavery Article 4: No Data — No Slavery 4 Article 5: +0.70 — No Torture 5 Article 6: +0.80 — Legal Personhood 6 Article 7: +0.30 — Equality Before Law 7 Article 8: +0.44 — Right to Remedy 8 Article 9: ND — No Arbitrary Detention Article 9: No Data — No Arbitrary Detention 9 Article 10: +0.50 — Fair Hearing 10 Article 11: ND — Presumption of Innocence Article 11: No Data — Presumption of Innocence 11 Article 12: ND — Privacy Article 12: No Data — Privacy 12 Article 13: +0.40 — Freedom of Movement 13 Article 14: ND — Asylum Article 14: No Data — Asylum 14 Article 15: ND — Nationality Article 15: No Data — Nationality 15 Article 16: +0.70 — Marriage & Family 16 Article 17: ND — Property Article 17: No Data — Property 17 Article 18: +0.60 — Freedom of Thought 18 Article 19: +0.50 — Freedom of Expression 19 Article 20: ND — Assembly & Association Article 20: No Data — Assembly & Association 20 Article 21: ND — Political Participation Article 21: No Data — Political Participation 21 Article 22: +0.40 — Social Security 22 Article 23: +0.85 — Work & Equal Pay 23 Article 24: ND — Rest & Leisure Article 24: No Data — Rest & Leisure 24 Article 25: +0.60 — Standard of Living 25 Article 26: +0.70 — Education 26 Article 27: +0.50 — Cultural Participation 27 Article 28: +0.70 — Social & International Order 28 Article 29: ND — Duties to Community Article 29: No Data — Duties to Community 29 Article 30: ND — No Destruction of Rights Article 30: No Data — No Destruction of Rights 30
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Editorial Mean +0.65 Structural Mean -0.05
Weighted Mean +0.64 Unweighted Mean +0.62
Max +0.90 Article 2 Min +0.30 Article 7
Signal 19 No Data 12
Volatility 0.17 (Medium)
Negative 0 Channels E: 0.6 S: 0.4
SETL +0.66 Editorial-dominant
FW Ratio 58% 53 facts · 38 inferences
Evidence 43% coverage
6H 12M 1L 12 ND
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Foundation Security Legal Privacy & Movement Personal Expression Economic & Social Cultural Order & Duties Foundation: 0.83 (3 articles) Security: 0.65 (2 articles) Legal: 0.51 (4 articles) Privacy & Movement: 0.40 (1 articles) Personal: 0.65 (2 articles) Expression: 0.50 (1 articles) Economic & Social: 0.62 (3 articles) Cultural: 0.60 (2 articles) Order & Duties: 0.70 (1 articles)
HN Discussion 20 top-level · 30 replies
thor24 2020-09-22 08:51 UTC link
It boils my blood reading something like this. A man who worked has worked for 20 yrs, paid taxes, provided for his family (in US and back home) has to suffer this much humiliation.

Compound this with the fact the person must be (most likely) on his H1B so can't leave his job and prepare for another one in peace because 2 month window is a short one to find a job.

If there is some karma in this world I hope Iyer/other guy gets it.

varbhat 2020-09-22 09:15 UTC link
It is problem of those casteist employees of Cisco , Cisco , it's management and it's rules. They are simply not proper. There are many casteists too in many companies who must be terminated from Employment if casteist behavior is found.

Note that not all upper-caste People are casteist and harmful. I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant/food/shelter from the Government claiming it from Government. It only harms very poor Dalits in need.

This Casteism at companies is bad and Casteism is crime. Also, the title of this post is Peculiar. Title must not be "90% of Techies are upper caste" as upper caste is not synonymous with casteist.

Also,there are many poor,hard working non-casteist people who by birth(not changeable) were upper-caste people who worked hard to get into good job in US,so they deserve that job.

jerzyt 2020-09-22 09:15 UTC link
What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the connections I've observed.
_jgdh 2020-09-22 09:39 UTC link
For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefore it doesn't exist.

But it does. It's heartbreaking that my fellow Indians have to deal with this in 2020. Just like BLM educated some white people about the existence of racism, how it manifests, how it affects people etc., we need a similar movement to educate upper caste Indians.

I've also seen the same people say "if we completely ignore caste, it'll go away". It won't. I personally can't tell you what someone's caste is based on their name because I don't care enough to find out the mapping between name <=> caste. If everyone was like this, there wouldn't be a problem. But I know for a fact that there exist people who can map name to caste and these people also discriminate on the basis of caste. These people might only be a minority but they can have a disproportionate effect. As long as they exist, the rest of us can't adopt an ostrich approach to the caste system.

merricksb 2020-09-22 09:45 UTC link
Earlier discussions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 (358 points/83 days ago/606 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 (84 points/73 days ago/58 comments)

rvn1045 2020-09-22 09:48 UTC link
The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness.

They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to better education, have family from previous generations who were also college educated or worked well paid government jobs. These multi generational advantages have helped the current generation of the upper caste succeed in India and beyond.

The Upper caste live in their own bubble not even realizing the privilege they are born with.

mcv 2020-09-22 10:06 UTC link
My dad recently told me how during the 1980s they had two Indians working together on a project. Turns out one of them was upper-caste, and the other lower-caste, and the upper-caste basically refused. Was impossible to work with, because he was offended that he had to work with a lower-caste person.

If this attitude discrimination of Dalits by upper-castes is really so common in non-Indian companies, it sounds like it would be irresponsible to put upper-caste Indians in a position of authority over Dalits. Maybe they need additional training to help them overcome their prejudices, but this sort of discrimination and bullying should really not be acceptable. Of course if you blindly assume all upper-caste Indians are like that, it would ironically lead to discrimination of those upper castes. Education is probably the better option.

pringles_red 2020-09-22 10:07 UTC link
I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted.

I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due to fact that they believe that one caste is superior to another, they are doing it because they are able to sympathise with the plight of other unreserved Indians in India.

How it is to be unreserved in India: Any unreserved Indian who wants to stay in India is basically agreeing to working two to three times as hard as a reserved Indian to get into any government jobs/colleges while at the same time their tax money is being used to fund these. Also complaining about caste system or reservation can land you in jail (for offending minorities) and the politicians use reserved people as their vote-banks providing them even more privileges for votes. This system is only going to get worse for upper castes. So even your future generations have to work two - three times as hard because of their caste. Sounds like a good deal?

Also reservation benefits only rich reserved people not the poor ones who actually need help because everyone of the caste regardless of their economic circumstances can take advantage of reservation. My grandparents were literally rag pickers at one point in their life and now they are in the middle class I'm not sure how this is due to their caste and not their hard-work. The system is utterly disrespectful to anyone in the upper class. Thus, the higher amount of immigration is of the upper class anyways.

P.S. - By upper caste I mean the "General" unreserved people and "SC ST OBC" etc are the reserved quotas.

dharmach 2020-09-22 18:43 UTC link
This is more of a USA problem where people working under H1B visa are somehow dependent to their employer/manager and vulnerable to exploitation/discrimination (if the employer/manager happens to be a casteist Indian). In Canada (for example), I can flaunt my low caste without such fear.
neilk 2020-09-22 18:58 UTC link
Slightly offtopic, but the recent book "Caste" by Isabel Wilkerson explores the concept as a frame for understanding social problems, beyond just India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Disc...

lowend 2020-09-22 19:13 UTC link
ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming:

1. This is due to a few bad apples

2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not)

3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist

I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't give away my caste either. I don't broadcast it or even like to talk about it because growing up I experienced innumerable instances where people's behaviors instantly changed when they found out. Some mild, some extreme but it was there.

I grew up in a metro so this isn't a backward ass village. My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? This is normal for you?

Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. Fortunately, there are plenty of people (regardless of their caste - I never ask/care) that feel the same way. Funny enough, the people who care about caste also seem to be racially biased in my anecdotal experience. :|

raincom 2020-09-22 19:28 UTC link
If we go by the rhetoric of 'the caste system', Mukesh Ambani (an Indian billionaire) will hire poor people from his caste for C-level exec positions in Reliance.

Same thing with marriage: look at the billionaires in India. Which one of them has married a poor person from his/her caste? None.

How many of these Indians in FAANG hired some incompetent ones from his caste without acing leetcode hard questions?

If you are super wealthy, caste/color/creed doesn't matter; it is only for the poor schmucks.

gariti 2020-09-22 19:40 UTC link
As a white American who grew up with indian friends/family who traveled in India for the first time, I was pretty shocked at how different it was than I expected. It's Incredibly diverse in terms of language, religion, culture, ect and I can say that It's the only county I've visited that I left feeling I knew less than before I came.
hartator 2020-09-22 20:07 UTC link
A reminder that CISCO allowed official caste discrimination in the US among their Indian workers until recently: https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/tech/cisco-lawsuit-caste-disc...
sharadov 2020-09-22 20:13 UTC link
Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfilled seats. A friend who belonged to a lower caste ( got a rank of 25000 in the entrance exam and breezed into a top engineering school), while another guy from an upper caste who got a rank of 5000, basically was rejected. You pretty much had to get a rank under 3000 if you were from an upper caste to get an admit to any engineering school. Not everyone who is upper case in India is rich, in fact the Brahmins are mostly lower - middle class. To be poor and Brahmin is like getting doubly screwed. The reservation system does not stop at education, you have it in public sector jobs. Merit took a big hit, people who were unqualified started making their way into education and jobs. It's a good idea taken to an extreme. A lot of these "Brahmins" are butt-hurt because of this, but hey, you are in the US now, leave that feudal thinking behind.
mabbo 2020-09-22 20:28 UTC link
At no point do they say "Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit". That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don't.

> "Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all," the company said in a statement to online news site thewire.

> "We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this case dating back to 2016, and have determined we were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies. Cisco will vigorously defend itself against the allegations made in this complaint." (emphasis mine).

We're inclusive! You can tell, because nothing we did was strictly illegal! And nothing violated any of our policies, which don't cover discrimination by caste!

anonymousJim12 2020-09-22 21:08 UTC link
I'm not sure if this will be seen but I'm very curious to hear from Indian folk:

I am the hiring manager at a well known software company that employs a lot of Indians on H1B visas. A while back I brought in an Indian person for a full round interview. This person happen to have pretty dark skin. On the interview team was a light skinned Indian person with a very Brahmin last name that I'd say is pretty average technically and wasn't my first choice to be on the interview team. The unbiased interview feedback sent to me was 5 yes to hire and the only no to hire (and strong at that) was the Indian interviewer...

A few days later I read about this caste situation at Cisco and I had to wonder...

Any recommendations on how I can avoid having this uncertainty if discrimination was at play? Seems like a pretty hard thing to prove.

primitivesuave 2020-09-22 21:45 UTC link
I was born in India and grew up in the South Bay Area, which has a big Indian population. I distinctly remember other Indian kids in my elementary/middle school asking me what my caste is. I later asked my parents and they refused to tell me, explaining to me why I shouldn't care. I still don't know to this day, although researching my last name implied rural origins. I am lucky to have immigrant parents who didn't bring this ugly aspect of Indian society with them - those other kids who asked me likely had parents who did, and were imbuing their kids with it from a young age.
zwaps 2020-09-23 04:59 UTC link
I know one case in a big and very internationally staffed European company where Indian employees have sort coalesced into a group (hiring amongst themselves, giving out promotions allegedly) that plays out some sort of complicated social structure - including many of them moving into the same apartment building (majorly unusual in this country!) and supposedly some caste-based status system that is rather opaque for anyone else. Within that division, non-Indians also have a difficult standing or at least say they do.

There is not much people can do about it, it would be risky topic to address. If true, it goes without saying that this is completely unacceptable on many levels. It breeds serious negative sentiments: I have heard other employees talking quite badly about the situation and Indian employees involved. Several people, all I talked to actually, actively try to leave that team.

I know that forming a cohesive subgroup in a foreign culture probably gives comfort, but (to the degree that this is all true) I'd urge Indians working abroad not to do this. It'll eventually have negative consequences for everyone involved. I was seriously surprised by the sort of negative comments I have heard from non-Indian team members.

dang 2020-10-02 03:18 UTC link
All: please note that there are more comments on page 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047&p=2

(That's what clicking the 'More' links at the bottom of large threads takes you to)

DaiPlusPlus 2020-09-22 08:53 UTC link
> 2 month window

As a former H1-B myself, I thought the "2 month window" was a very unofficial grace-period and actually, de-jure, you're ostensibly meant to leave the US immediately (literally, the same day) and only return when a new sponsor agrees to take you on.

_jgdh 2020-09-22 09:49 UTC link
To be fair, it requires a lot self awareness and external education to learn about your own privilege and how difficult (relatively) other people have it. It's not easy.
focus2020 2020-09-22 09:53 UTC link
> A man who worked has worked for 20 yrs, paid taxes, provided for his family (in US and back home) ...

You don't understand what you have taken for granted. In the name of hindu religion, citing the vedas education has been denied to all non-brahmins(other than priestly caste) until Britishers arrived. This is the reason majority of the indians are first college goers in their family. For us what you described is the definition of heaven.

barry-cotter 2020-09-22 10:02 UTC link
> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US.

There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy or continuing immigration; People socialize and mate with those they spend time with unless there are powerful reasons not to. All will be assimilated in time.

mcv 2020-09-22 10:19 UTC link
It's important that companies are aware of this, take complaints seriously, inform their Indian employees that this is not acceptable, explain where and how to report this, and offer training to overcome these prejudices.

And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigious projects, etc), then the abuser should be demoted or fired.

If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company.

Also, maybe there should be some education projects and affirmative action for those Dalit communities.

buran77 2020-09-22 10:23 UTC link
I saw the situation a bit differently, the upper caste guys would have no problem working with the lower caste ones simply because this meant they never had to work. They would pawn off all the work on the others and order them around. And if I tried to force any work on them it just backfired since they just shoved it down the throats of their "slaves".

Even trying to embarrass them in a meeting didn't work. With all eyes on them they would just look at me with a look of mild surprise. They simply (and sincerely) could not acknowledge why someone would phrase as a criticism something that for them is so naturally correct. For them it looked like criticizing a farmer for using work horses. I found this as some of the most disgusting behavior I have ever witnessed in a place of work.

higerordermap 2020-09-22 10:24 UTC link
This. I think US people see caste system as something like skin color based racism in west. Actually it is much more complicated than that.

I know people from upper castes who were actually middle class farmers, and those from lower castes that got benefit from quotas even if they were rich[0].

Affirmative action is always bad. Because the people getting benefit of it are likely to be privileged. In this particular lawsuit, the discriminated was mentioned to be an IIT alumnus. It is basically hard to get into an IIT without decent investment in study materials / training to pass entrance exams these days. But still most of the seats are reserved for SC/ST/OBC and availed by people who are rich.

After reading this, some so called Indian liberals jump in to defend this is never the case. Go to an IIT and check the list of students who got in due to affirmative action (called reservation here). You will find most of them having wealthy parents because most students who write IIT entrance exams take coaching[1], and that's quite expensive.

Some media likes to highlight this or this may even give impression that upper caste Indians are casteist. They are not. But they are likely fed up with the abomination that reservations (affirmative actions) are.

Apart from that, there is likely chances of nepotism in bureaucratic organizations like Cisco.

Also, as for as I know, the caste system alone doesn't explain why South Indian upper caste people are more successful than North Indian upper castes (Brahmins / Baniyas) who outnumber them easily, and also appear more in IITs/NITs.

notacoward 2020-09-22 11:37 UTC link
Everything you say rings very true to me. Most Indians are very reluctant to talk about this. Of several that became friends when I worked with a team in BLR, only one became close enough that we could discuss it. He himself was from one of the very highest sub-castes (which he taught me was trivially knowable from his surname) but very enlightened. I was shocked to discover that all but two or three out of about fifty colleagues were Brahmin[1]. It explained a lot of the dynamics I had already observed, like why one of the best engineers in the place had never been promoted or why some of them literally wouldn't even talk to another. Caste, especially Dalit vs. everyone else, still seems to be very much a thing. But, as you say, nobody wants to discuss it.

[1] That's the word he used. It might well have been shorthand for a more complex concept that he knew I wouldn't understand.

magicalhippo 2020-09-22 18:28 UTC link
I'm Norwegian, living there. A very good friend is Indian, her parents moved here while she was just a few years old. I never heard her talk about her caste, or the system in general really.

That is, until one day, out of the blue, she said she was getting married. Her parents had found a boy who also grew up here in Norway that she was to marry the following year.

After a bit of talking it was clear she was not very fond of the idea of her parents finding her a mate. However from what I gathered she was just about as worried about his caste.

He was of a lower caste than her, and this was not ideal at all from what I understood. However, his family was rather well off, so perhaps it would be acceptable after all...

This came as a complete shock to me, as I had perceived her as rather liberal and as mentioned had never heard her speak of her caste or similar. But there it was, weighing her down.

lowend 2020-09-22 19:05 UTC link
Read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=24552608&goto=item%3Fi...

reservation system is not the issue. It's politicized heavily. For people who for generations have been fucked with and been given no opportunity to do better cannot suddenly do good for themselves and their family without help. This is not a problem.

heavyset_go 2020-09-22 19:09 UTC link
> They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own.

The number of people I've run into that claim this, but their parents paid their rent, or bought them a house, or they work for their family's company, is staggering. It's a common blind spot for upper middle class and rich people.

jeffbee 2020-09-22 19:30 UTC link
That doesn't seem like a situation where a great deal of discretion and nuance is called for. The "upper-caste" guy should find himself outside the building with all his shit in a cardboard box five minutes after expressing such an attitude.
adjkant 2020-09-22 19:32 UTC link
> I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due to fact that they believe that one caste is superior to another, they are doing it because they are able to sympathise with the plight of other unreserved Indians in India.

Replace:

- reservation system -> affirmative action

- upper caste -> middle class "true" Americans / white Americans / people born well-off / etc

and this reads exactly like rich white conservatism in America, and falls into the exact same pitfalls of "well I worked hard so obviously I deserve it". Systemic oppression is not erased by hard and honest work of the descendants of oppressors, it must be actively fixed.

I don't mean to say this as a way to call out India specifically as the US obviously has done quite badly here. The point is that it's quite wild to see the direct parallels of systemic classist oppression and the same story playing out here.

When you have unjust power and things are equalized, psychologically it feels like you are losing something. It's not an illogical response to dig in your heels into "but I earned it" and "but reverse discrimination", but people must fight that basic instinct to understand beyond their own perspective.

Preemptively, I want to state this: the more mild form of this argument goes "yes there's discrimination we need to solve, but let's not let the pendulum swing past the point of equilibrium and hurt us in any way". This is effectively stating that you value never facing actual oppression over the solving of a long faced oppression of others in a timely manner. It's an inherent devaluing of the oppressed while acknowledging they are, indeed, oppressed.

For what it's worth, among many times asking for this, I have yet to encounter a historical example of a time the "pendulum" actually swung too far. This is more or less the story of civil rights in America over the centuries. Every time is a step towards equilibrium, stunted and delayed by many sympathetic oppressors cutting actions short.

thatfrenchguy 2020-09-22 19:49 UTC link
> For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it.

A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

screye 2020-09-22 20:13 UTC link
I am not from an upper caste either, but my experience doesn't match with yours at all. My peer group is less culturally Indian than others, but I wonder if experiences such as yours are more pronounced in certain regions or groups, more than others.

I have never once been asked my caste, and I have never once seen my friends be asked their castes. But, I realize that being middle class in an Indian metro city already puts me in the 10% class of India that is somewhat shielded from this stuff. I also know that caste becomes a huge thing during marriages and dating. But, I haven't seen much of it in tech. It is far more prevalent in careers where you need communication with under-skilled workers (mechE, civilE), since these workers stick by castes quite closely.

> My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards

Would you be willing to tell me what university this was. I can't imagine this being the case in any metro city in India.

I won't call you a liar, but this is the first I hear of it and the burden of evidence is on you.

> I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste"

Oh yeah, I am too, and I can completely empathize with this people making this assumption. Although, it has been more commonly used in situations where it is used as a way to say "you do not understand the problems of lower caste / dark skinned people in India" than anything else.

________________

Caste based discrimination is a huge problem in India, especially in non-metro India. But, my 2 cents, I have yet to notice any in my time in Tech in the US. ( I did go to a university/location with low south Asian%, but my peer groups in university were very Indian, as are most masters programs, but YMMV)

sudoaza 2020-09-22 20:16 UTC link
This is true for most countries, how many developers do you know that come from real poor families? In my experience most had it pretty good, that's why they had a computer and maybe internet growing up, and time to play with it, and time to study instead of working to support yourself and the family.
gonehome 2020-09-22 20:16 UTC link
These same arguments are made about race in the US too.

In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues.

I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

screye 2020-09-22 20:36 UTC link
It has another side that validates their opinion. ( I am neither upper caste, nor come from a historically wealthy family)

In many cases parents will live incredibly frugally their whole lives to save up enough money for their child's education. Growing up on $3-8k annually is a humble background for a family when look at from the American lens. Qualifying for Indian universities is a nightmare exam that takes 2+ years of 10+ hrs a day of study. The kids compromise on any hobbies and a life just to MAKE IT.

Everything in India IS far harder than the developed world. A family that can't afford a personal vehicle, air conditioning or a single vacation over their lifetime is a humble family. Being successful enough to make it to the >95th percentile in the western world from such beginning is commendable and something a person should be able to take pride in.

Now, is it still an order of magnitude less hard to do this than it is for a dalit ? Ofc it is. But, should a person born in the western world feel ashamed to get a phd because kids in Africa are dying of hunger ? NO.

> Come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own

> Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to better education

Both these statements can be true. One should not need to throw away pride in their accomplishments to empathize with someone less fortunate.

screye 2020-09-22 20:42 UTC link
> I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant/food/shelter from the Government claiming it from Government. It only harms very poor Dalits in need.

This is something I have been thinking quite a lot about.

The Govt. really struggles to cap affirmative action to only those who need it.

I knew people who were from lower castes, used reservation to get in and had Macbooks, iPhones and spent summers abroad touring.

How hard is it to disqualify them due to financial means ? There are too many poor Dalits who would rather use those seats.

kelnos 2020-09-22 20:44 UTC link
Yup. And IIRC caste isn't a protected class in the US, they can completely ignore the problem -- or even actively allow or endorse it! -- and still be "fully in compliance with all laws".
gonehome 2020-09-22 20:55 UTC link
Cisco is also the company that tried to pitch building the 'great firewall' for the CCP: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html

They don't care about right or wrong, they only care about making the most money they can while staying within the technical legal constraints of the countries they operate in.

I doubt they'd stop at workplace discrimination, if the CCP or Indian government wanted to leverage their tech to kill people (Dalit or Uighur) I'm sure they'd line up to do it (of course they’d rationalize some reason why it wasn’t their problem).

yumraj 2020-09-22 21:14 UTC link
Don't you have a process where you ask the basis for both yes and no?

Both yes and no need to be substantiated by examples by the interviewers and that should be able to tell you whether there is any bias or not.

forinti 2020-09-22 21:19 UTC link
I wonder if a blind interview would help.

Could you guess a person's caste through his accent?

pm90 2020-09-22 21:19 UTC link
Do you have meetings where you talk about the interviewee? A strong no usually merits some kind of explanation. In addition, we always have at least 2 persons in each interview to ensure that a bad interviewer doesn't just make shit up.

Companies also have bias training which can be very useful.

pm90 2020-09-22 21:23 UTC link
To right historical wrongs is not easy. I initially thought of the reservation system as a terrible idea because of exactly the reasons you stated.

These policies are meant to help society in aggregates so there will always be folks who get screwed. Its important to keep trying though. While slavery in the US is perhaps 300 years old, the caste system has been seemingly around since the beginning of civilization on the Indian subcontinent...that's an unimaginable amount of time over which certain sections of society were systematically discriminated against.

hawk_ 2020-09-22 21:34 UTC link
I know this is a caste thread, but there might be a more general issue at play here - a mediocre person may not be able to recognize a talented person, a good solution or a good design. Not putting mediocre people on interview panels would be way higher on my list before getting to cultural or discrimination issues. I am almost inclined to bet that more talented people are less likely to discriminate anyway based on race caste etc... because they don't have the same insecurities.
swebs 2020-09-22 21:41 UTC link
That sounds exactly like the issue in the US.
paxys 2020-09-22 21:44 UTC link
They don't say it because it is a legal matter and it would be stupid to make a statement about it to the media.
YetAnotherNick 2020-09-22 21:58 UTC link
> My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. How the fuck is a person's caste relevant?

I have seen far less serious things related to caste dragged on media for days. I think this is illegal, and I am sure I heard in the news there is a law against marking someone's caste. Also there is law where you can be selective about disclosing caste and won't have to disclose it if you don't want the benefit. Any proof you have for this?

hairband 2020-09-22 22:06 UTC link
Pardon me for making assumptions but you seem to be not Indian, which makes me wonder how did you know that one of the persons on the interview panel had "very Brahmin last name"?
Editorial Channel
What the content says
+0.90
Article 2 Non-Discrimination
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.90
SETL
ND

The entire article is fundamentally about discrimination based on caste and ancestry. Central lawsuit and case study (John Doe at Cisco) document systematic discrimination. Multiple specific examples of discriminatory practices cited.

+0.85
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.85
SETL
ND

The article's central focus is workplace discrimination and denial of fair work conditions based on caste. Extensively documents violations of work rights including demotion, reduced compensation, blocked advancement, hostile environment.

+0.80
Preamble Preamble
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.80
SETL
ND

The article grounds itself in principles of human dignity and equal worth. Opens by framing caste discrimination as 'terrorising' a marginalised group and emphasises that discrimination contradicts meritocratic principles underlying modern society.

+0.80
Article 1 Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.80
SETL
ND

Article advocates for equal dignity and rights by documenting how caste system violates this principle in practice. Argues that merit and talent should determine outcomes, not caste.

+0.80
Article 6 Legal Personhood
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.80
SETL
ND

Core argument: caste system denies recognition of Dalits as persons with equal status and rights. Article extensively documents dehumanisation and legal non-recognition.

+0.70
Article 5 No Torture
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Article documents cruel treatment and degrading practices against Dalits, both historical and contemporary. Describes torture, abuse, and humiliation in the workplace.

+0.70
Article 7 Equality Before Law
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
+0.84

Article advocates for equal protection under law by exposing systematic failure of legal systems to protect Dalits from discrimination. Lawsuit itself is framed positively as remedy attempt.

+0.70
Article 16 Marriage & Family
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Article documents caste-based restrictions on marriage, family formation, and protection of women and children. Advocates for family autonomy against caste-based control.

+0.70
Article 26 Education
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Article documents educational discrimination and segregation against Dalit children. Notes both denial of education and segregation when access is granted. Advocacy for equitable education rights.

+0.70
Article 28 Social & International Order
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Article frames caste system as fundamentally incompatible with modern social order based on merit, equality, and human rights. Advocates for social order based on human rights principles.

+0.60
Article 3 Life, Liberty, Security
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Article documents threats to security of person through harassment, bullying, and career sabotage. Historical context of physical violence. Current psychological/economic harm documented.

+0.60
Article 8 Right to Remedy
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
+0.49

Article frames the lawsuit as a positive development and mechanism for seeking remedy. Positions legal action as appropriate response to discrimination.

+0.60
Article 18 Freedom of Thought
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Article documents discrimination based on religion and caste identity, including restrictions on religious practice. Implicitly advocates for freedom of conscience and religion.

+0.60
Article 25 Standard of Living
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Article documents systematic economic disadvantage and denial of adequate standard of living for Dalits. Historical context and contemporary workplace discrimination both prevent adequate living standards.

+0.50
Article 10 Fair Hearing
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.50
SETL
ND

Article describes formal legal proceeding (lawsuit) for adjudicating discrimination claims. This implicitly advocates for fair and public hearing mechanisms.

+0.50
Article 19 Freedom of Expression
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.50
SETL
ND

The article itself is an exercise of expression, amplifying Dalit voices and testimonies. By publishing criticism of caste system and discrimination, advocates for freedom of expression.

+0.50
Article 27 Cultural Participation
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.50
SETL
ND

Article documents systematic exclusion from cultural and social participation - cannot eat, pray, or socialise with upper castes. Implicitly advocates for cultural participation rights.

+0.40
Article 13 Freedom of Movement
Low Advocacy
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
ND

Article mentions H-1B visa revocation as consequence of caste-based discrimination, documenting restrictions on freedom of movement.

+0.40
Article 22 Social Security
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
ND

Article documents systematic denial of economic benefits and social protection (bonuses, promotions, fair pay) to Dalit workers. Implicitly advocates for social security and economic protection.

ND
Article 4 No Slavery

No direct content addressing slavery or servitude.

ND
Article 9 No Arbitrary Detention

No content addressing arbitrary arrest or detention.

ND
Article 11 Presumption of Innocence

No content addressing presumption of innocence or criminal proceedings.

ND
Article 12 Privacy

No content addressing privacy rights.

ND
Article 14 Asylum

No content addressing asylum or refugee status.

ND
Article 15 Nationality

No content addressing nationality or statelessness.

ND
Article 17 Property

No content addressing property rights.

ND
Article 20 Assembly & Association

No content addressing freedom of assembly or association.

ND
Article 21 Political Participation

No content addressing democratic participation.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

No content addressing rest, leisure, or reasonable working hours.

ND
Article 29 Duties to Community

No content addressing duties to community.

ND
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights

No content addressing interpretation of rights.

Structural Channel
What the site does
+0.20
Article 8 Right to Remedy
Medium Advocacy
Structural
+0.20
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.49

The filing of the lawsuit represents a structural attempt at remedy, though the article documents that internal remedy mechanisms (HR) failed.

-0.30
Article 7 Equality Before Law
High Advocacy
Structural
-0.30
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.84

Article describes structural failure: Cisco HR explicitly told employee that 'caste discrimination was not unlawful,' indicating company failed to provide equal legal protection. Lawsuit had to be filed because legal system did not initially recognise caste as protected category.

ND
Preamble Preamble
High Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 1 Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood
High Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 2 Non-Discrimination
High Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 3 Life, Liberty, Security
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 4 No Slavery

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 5 No Torture
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 6 Legal Personhood
High Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 9 No Arbitrary Detention

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 10 Fair Hearing
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 11 Presumption of Innocence

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 12 Privacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 13 Freedom of Movement
Low Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 14 Asylum

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 15 Nationality

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 16 Marriage & Family
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 17 Property

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 18 Freedom of Thought
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 19 Freedom of Expression
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 20 Assembly & Association

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 21 Political Participation

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 22 Social Security
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay
High Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 25 Standard of Living
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 26 Education
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 27 Cultural Participation
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 28 Social & International Order
Medium Advocacy

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 29 Duties to Community

Not evaluated.

ND
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights

Not evaluated.

Supplementary Signals
How this content communicates, beyond directional lean. Learn more
Epistemic Quality
How well-sourced and evidence-based is this content?
0.71 medium claims
Sources
0.7
Evidence
0.7
Uncertainty
0.6
Purpose
0.8
Propaganda Flags
1 manipulative rhetoric technique found
1 techniques detected
loaded language
Terms like 'terrorised,' 'horrifying,' 'living nightmare,' and 'sick joke' are emotionally charged but grounded in documented discrimination and abuse.
Emotional Tone
Emotional character: positive/negative, intensity, authority
solemn
Valence
-0.6
Arousal
0.7
Dominance
0.5
Transparency
Does the content identify its author and disclose interests?
0.85
✓ Author
More signals: context, framing & audience
Solution Orientation
Does this content offer solutions or only describe problems?
0.15 problem only
Reader Agency
0.3
Stakeholder Voice
Whose perspectives are represented in this content?
0.52 4 perspectives
Speaks: individualsmarginalizedcorporation
About: governmentinstitution
Temporal Framing
Is this content looking backward, at the present, or forward?
mixed historical
Geographic Scope
What geographic area does this content cover?
global
India, United States, Silicon Valley, Bombay
Complexity
How accessible is this content to a general audience?
moderate medium jargon general
Longitudinal · 7 evals
+1 0 −1 HN
Audit Trail 27 entries
2026-02-28 14:07 model_divergence Cross-model spread 1.19 exceeds threshold (4 models) - -
2026-02-28 14:07 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5-20251001: +0.64 (Strong positive) +0.05
2026-02-28 14:01 model_divergence Cross-model spread 1.15 exceeds threshold (4 models) - -
2026-02-28 14:01 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5-20251001: +0.59 (Moderate positive) +0.01
2026-02-28 13:59 model_divergence Cross-model spread 1.15 exceeds threshold (4 models) - -
2026-02-28 13:59 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5-20251001: +0.58 (Moderate positive) -0.05
2026-02-28 13:39 model_divergence Cross-model spread 1.19 exceeds threshold (4 models) - -
2026-02-28 13:39 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5-20251001: +0.63 (Strong positive)
2026-02-28 12:00 eval_success Lite evaluated: Strong positive (0.60) - -
2026-02-28 12:00 eval Evaluated by llama-3.3-70b-wai: +0.60 (Strong positive)
reasoning
Editorial exposes caste abuse
2026-02-28 12:00 rater_validation_warn Lite validation warnings for model llama-3.3-70b-wai: 0W 1R - -
2026-02-28 12:00 model_divergence Cross-model spread 1.15 exceeds threshold (3 models) - -
2026-02-28 11:55 eval_success Lite evaluated: Moderate positive (0.56) - -
2026-02-28 11:55 rater_validation_warn Lite validation warnings for model llama-4-scout-wai: 0W 1R - -
2026-02-28 11:55 model_divergence Cross-model spread 1.11 exceeds threshold (2 models) - -
2026-02-28 11:55 eval Evaluated by llama-4-scout-wai: +0.56 (Moderate positive)
reasoning
Editorial discusses Indian caste system abuses in tech
2026-02-26 22:53 eval_success Evaluated: Moderate negative (-0.55) - -
2026-02-26 22:53 rater_validation_warn Validation warnings for model deepseek-v3.2: 0W 44R - -
2026-02-26 22:53 eval Evaluated by deepseek-v3.2: -0.55 (Moderate negative) 14,845 tokens
2026-02-26 22:07 rater_validation_fail Validation failed for model llama-4-scout-wai - -
2026-02-26 20:02 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - -
2026-02-26 20:01 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - -
2026-02-26 20:01 eval_failure Evaluation failed: Error: Unknown model in registry: llama-4-scout-wai - -
2026-02-26 20:00 eval_failure Evaluation failed: Error: Unknown model in registry: llama-4-scout-wai - -
2026-02-26 19:59 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 19:59 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - -
2026-02-26 19:59 eval_failure Evaluation failed: Error: Unknown model in registry: llama-4-scout-wai - -