Model Comparison 100% sign agreement
Model Editorial Structural Class Conf SETL Theme
claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 +0.58 +0.20 Moderate positive 0.47 0.39 Institutional Accountability & Rule of Law
@cf/meta/llama-4-scout-17b-16e-instruct lite +0.40 ND Moderate positive 0.80 0.00 Police Accountability
@cf/meta/llama-3.3-70b-instruct-fp8-fast lite +0.50 ND Moderate positive 0.90 0.00 Police Accountability
deepseek/deepseek-v3.2-20251201 +0.44 +0.08 Neutral 0.36 0.37 Due Process
Section claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 @cf/meta/llama-4-scout-17b-16e-instruct lite @cf/meta/llama-3.3-70b-instruct-fp8-fast lite deepseek/deepseek-v3.2-20251201
Preamble 0.50 ND ND 0.30
Article 1 0.60 ND ND 0.40
Article 2 ND ND ND 0.50
Article 3 0.70 ND ND 0.60
Article 4 ND ND ND ND
Article 5 0.60 ND ND 0.50
Article 6 0.70 ND ND 0.40
Article 7 0.80 ND ND 0.60
Article 8 0.70 ND ND 0.50
Article 9 0.60 ND ND 0.40
Article 10 0.70 ND ND 0.50
Article 11 ND ND ND 0.40
Article 12 ND ND ND ND
Article 13 ND ND ND ND
Article 14 ND ND ND ND
Article 15 ND ND ND ND
Article 16 ND ND ND ND
Article 17 ND ND ND ND
Article 18 ND ND ND ND
Article 19 0.44 ND ND 0.66
Article 20 ND ND ND ND
Article 21 0.30 ND ND 0.30
Article 22 ND ND ND ND
Article 23 0.40 ND ND ND
Article 24 ND ND ND ND
Article 25 ND ND ND ND
Article 26 0.32 ND ND ND
Article 27 ND ND ND 0.45
Article 28 0.40 ND ND 0.30
Article 29 0.70 ND ND 0.40
Article 30 ND ND ND ND
+0.58 Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks (theconversation.com S:+0.20 )
815 points by znpy 2075 days ago | 532 comments on HN | Moderate positive Editorial · v3.7 · 2026-02-28 12:19:38 0
Summary Institutional Accountability & Rule of Law Advocates
This academic opinion article compares U.S. military and police accountability cultures, arguing that the military's institutional approach—treating service members as legally responsible reasoning agents—better protects human rights principles including equal treatment, fair trial, and accountability for misconduct. The analysis directly contrasts this with police culture's 'blue wall of silence,' which suppresses reporting of wrongdoing and shields officers from consequences. The article advocates that institutional duty to accountability should supersede personal loyalty, citing specific cases and legal precedent to support stronger protections for human dignity and rule of law.
Article Heatmap
Preamble: +0.50 — Preamble P Article 1: +0.60 — Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood 1 Article 2: ND — Non-Discrimination Article 2: No Data — Non-Discrimination 2 Article 3: +0.70 — Life, Liberty, Security 3 Article 4: ND — No Slavery Article 4: No Data — No Slavery 4 Article 5: +0.60 — No Torture 5 Article 6: +0.70 — Legal Personhood 6 Article 7: +0.80 — Equality Before Law 7 Article 8: +0.70 — Right to Remedy 8 Article 9: +0.60 — No Arbitrary Detention 9 Article 10: +0.70 — Fair Hearing 10 Article 11: ND — Presumption of Innocence Article 11: No Data — Presumption of Innocence 11 Article 12: ND — Privacy Article 12: No Data — Privacy 12 Article 13: ND — Freedom of Movement Article 13: No Data — Freedom of Movement 13 Article 14: ND — Asylum Article 14: No Data — Asylum 14 Article 15: ND — Nationality Article 15: No Data — Nationality 15 Article 16: ND — Marriage & Family Article 16: No Data — Marriage & Family 16 Article 17: ND — Property Article 17: No Data — Property 17 Article 18: ND — Freedom of Thought Article 18: No Data — Freedom of Thought 18 Article 19: +0.44 — Freedom of Expression 19 Article 20: ND — Assembly & Association Article 20: No Data — Assembly & Association 20 Article 21: +0.30 — Political Participation 21 Article 22: ND — Social Security Article 22: No Data — Social Security 22 Article 23: +0.40 — Work & Equal Pay 23 Article 24: ND — Rest & Leisure Article 24: No Data — Rest & Leisure 24 Article 25: ND — Standard of Living Article 25: No Data — Standard of Living 25 Article 26: +0.32 — Education 26 Article 27: ND — Cultural Participation Article 27: No Data — Cultural Participation 27 Article 28: +0.40 — Social & International Order 28 Article 29: +0.70 — Duties to Community 29 Article 30: ND — No Destruction of Rights Article 30: No Data — No Destruction of Rights 30
Negative Neutral Positive No Data
Aggregates
Editorial Mean +0.58 Structural Mean +0.20
Weighted Mean +0.58 Unweighted Mean +0.56
Max +0.80 Article 7 Min +0.30 Article 21
Signal 15 No Data 16
Volatility 0.15 (Medium)
Negative 0 Channels E: 0.6 S: 0.4
SETL +0.39 Editorial-dominant
FW Ratio 59% 49 facts · 34 inferences
Evidence 44% coverage
11H 6M 16 ND
Theme Radar
Foundation Security Legal Privacy & Movement Personal Expression Economic & Social Cultural Order & Duties Foundation: 0.55 (2 articles) Security: 0.65 (2 articles) Legal: 0.70 (5 articles) Privacy & Movement: 0.00 (0 articles) Personal: 0.00 (0 articles) Expression: 0.37 (2 articles) Economic & Social: 0.40 (1 articles) Cultural: 0.32 (1 articles) Order & Duties: 0.55 (2 articles)
HN Discussion 20 top-level · 30 replies
chrisbennet 2020-06-26 12:24 UTC link
We give the police some slack because its a dangerous job. They are often paid quite well because its dangerous.

But how dangerous is it?

1 Logging workers

2 Fishers and related fishing workers

3 Aircraft pilots and flight engineers

4 Roofers

5 Refuse and recyclable material collectors

6 Driver/sales workers and truck drivers

7 Farmers, ranchers and other agricultural managers

8 Structural iron and steel workers

9 First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers

10 First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service and groundskeeping workers

11 Electrical power-line installers and repairers

12 Grounds maintenance workers

13 Miscellaneous agricultural workers

14 Helpers, construction trades

15 First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers and repairers

16 Police and sheriff’s patrol officers

Source: https://www.ajc.com/business/employment/these-are-the-most-d...

EDIT: Be nice to your fellow HNer's. Also, no one could pay me enough to be a policeman.

shrubble 2020-06-26 12:29 UTC link
Was it the low-level soldiers or the higher-ups who created the plans for torture at Abu Ghraib who were publicly shamed, humiliated and then jailed?
yostrovs 2020-06-26 12:31 UTC link
Strangely, the word "union" doesn't appear in the article. Considering that it is the police unions that create the system within which police officers are protected, I believe their power and tactics need to be examined.
Melting_Harps 2020-06-26 12:40 UTC link
I take issue with this statement/argument based on the fact that there have been several people in jail for releasing material to wikileaks that revealed the grotesque amount of Human Rights violations, not least of which the video showing how some soldiers will kill in cold blood: Collateral Murder.

This ended up seeing Manning get thrown in jail, be tortured for years in isolation, as well as having attempted suicide several times while in jail (again! after getting a communicated sentence by Obama)_the last time for refusing to testify against others involved. And Assange has also had to suffer a confined existence, been dragged out of the Ecuadorian Embassy and placed in jail and still awaits trial while his health and mental health have deteriorated, I'd say his near 8 year amount of torture as a direct result of the Military trying to cover up misconduct showed the World just how perverse both systems really are.

I'm not even going to get into things like the use of Contractors like Black Water/Xe, or black-sites/rendition camps, and spies.

All I will say is read Jeremy Scahill's work, this pro-Military narrative seems entirely jingoistic and akin to 9/11 ahead of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I have vets in both wars in my family and have seen the consequences first hand, to me and alarming as the tensions between the CCP and the US are accelerating.

Just so its clear, I despise the CCP but War is not a solution or an option we should accept.

eiji 2020-06-26 12:53 UTC link
The military is a national organization with a hierarchy stretching from the first-day-on-the-job cadet all the way into the White House. In the US, almost every police department is it's own thing. I'm not aware of any national organization. Usually the mayor is the top of the hierarchy. That means a faceless bureaucracy, towns and states removed, will deal with individual concerns in the military. Not a known person three miles from your house.
VLM 2020-06-26 12:54 UTC link
It doesn't seem to actually explain anything. I was in the military and have some cop friends so maybe I can explain the divergent sociology:

Post police academy, AFAIK police never experience collective punishment. In the army its normal if someone loses a weapon to have everyone doing a few pushups. When you saw your squadmate without a rifle, why didn't you ask them wtf they're doing? From large to small scale cops experience punishment alone and military suffers as a group. Small crime breeds large crime and (pardon the pun) military simply self-polices more than cops as a leadership style.

I can't blame cops too much as they have to deal with demographics where saving face is important and one cop dropping another cop for pushups because they lost their summons-writing pen is impractical. Which brings up sociological difference where the enemy for cops is 40% to 100% of their daily interactions and is up close and personal, so screw these guys I'm breaking bad, whereas 100% of human interactions in the military is with buddies and the bad guys don't speak our language and the firefights are at 25 or more yards in a very abstract sense. Essentially cops spend most of their time with people who hate them so "getting even" makes more sense, whereas military spends nearly 100% of their time with friends and why would you want to screw over your buddy?

The military bakes corporate style reorganization into the cake, you can expect a PCS move around the world every two or so years, its very unusual to have TV or Movie style old timers who've been in the unit forever. Even in the Reserves if you are in long enough to get E-5 or E-6 you're almost certainly going to have to move to get that next promotion and higher level leadership always rotates even in the reserves. Noobs don't even know HOW to be corrupt for the first quarter of their time on station. Its a valuable learning experience and filters out people who can't learn quickly on the job, which for military is good. Cops on the other hand will have some old sgt who's been sitting on the same desk for 25 years and the good ole boys network of questionable activities formed decades ago and ...

The military is highly paid; civilians don't understand that when I got out (a quarter century ago) the current pay rate for me would be just under $3K/month, but that's not before tax like civilians, that's after getting housing, food, insurance, essentially all I have to pay for $3K/mo would be bar bill and car expenses. Cops on the other hand get paid approximately as much as public school teachers aka F-all not much in a pyramid scheme where people scream about the top of the pyramid making $100K but realize the top of the pyramid is incredibly small (like pro sports salaries) and the base of the pyramid is an immense number of people making $50K/yr or often far less. Speaking of pyramids, in the military every 5-yr experience E-4 makes the same $3K/mo after all expenses are paid, whereas with both cops and teachers its a pyramid where everyone has to compete to get up to that $100K/yr contract, there's a different attitude when you're competing vs when you all get the same paycheck.

Edited to add another important sociological point: Cops usually work alone or in a very small group like two people. Two people can keep a secret, even three. The smallest "working group" I can think of in the military would be special forces teams with at least 4 people, but the rank and file work in groups who can't keep secrets. You can't expect to catch a cop who works alone or with a buddy, so things get worse and worse until they make the news in a big way; whereas the first time someone screws up in the military they generally get caught and kicked out so things rarely get worse over time.

Note that outsiders think the military to cop pipeline is smooth. It CERTAINLY is NOT, and my buddies complain a lot about the sociological differences mentioned above along with others. Outsiders think they just wear a different uniform, but its really a wild cultural shift to go from military to being a cop. Maybe its the smallest shift to go from MP to civie police compared to other vocations, but its still a big shift in an absolute sense.

squarefoot 2020-06-26 13:00 UTC link
When I was in the military I was taught about esprit de corps, loyalty, camaraderie etc. but they stressed that any order that goes against humanity must not be followed. Fortunately I never had to test that on my own ass, however I'm sure that the Police protecting their bad apples has nothing to do with that. Loyalty and esprit de corps must never ever go beyond the law, otherwise they become essentially like the mafia's code of silence, that is, a crime that covers other crimes. If I see a cop doing that, I cease to consider him as a cop as he just became a criminal wrapped in uniform.
seemslegit 2020-06-26 13:15 UTC link
The military is made up from officers and enlisted personnel with the former selected and cultivated for higher personal characteristics. The police otoh while referring to themselves as officers is almost entirely enlisted-class material.
elchin 2020-06-26 13:25 UTC link
Military, especially Navy SEALs, are a lot more trained than police are, so their standards of behavior are higher. In US it takes 2-6 months to become a cop. In Germany, for comparison, it's around 2-3 years.
mchusma 2020-06-26 13:37 UTC link
I've come to believe public sector unions in their current form just shouldn't exist, as they exacerbate these kinds of problems. It is the Union's job to protect members, and the only group who is by design trying to make this happen.

I can't see the benefit to having an organization whose role it is to fight the public (citizens) in order to improve the lives of a group granted a monopoly over a function (e.g. use of force/policing). With private company unions, there is at least market pressures that solve some issues.

(I am not against all forms of representatation for workers, and think unions should exist but be more like "hollywood agents", and sell their services to individuals. The power to strike always still exists if you can convince the individuals it is a good idea.)

dx87 2020-06-26 13:40 UTC link
I think another reason could be the wide latitude you have in the military to punish someone without any official paperwork. If someone did something wrong, you could punish them with physical exercise, cleaning duties, taking away weekend liberty, etc., all without any paperwork. When you don't have to worry that you're going to ruin someone's career every time you punish them, it's a lot easier to keep them in line.
fmajid 2020-06-26 14:10 UTC link
The US Armed Forces' record on prosecuting sexual assault is abysmal. You have travesties like this:

https://www.stripes.com/news/emails-show-general-warned-agai...

crazygringo 2020-06-26 14:12 UTC link
Having become very interested in police brutality for obvious reasons, I recently finished Danger, Duty, and Disillusion: the Worldview of Los Angeles Police Officers [1] by Joan Barker, an academic book from 1999 that takes an anthropologist's view to understanding the LAPD after the Rodney King riots, and pretty much the only work I could find that tries to understand the police officer mindset holistically.

It is utterly fascinating and I highly recommend it, but one of the most interesting takeaways (consistent with this article) is that police officers quickly become utterly disillusioned with the integrity of the police department as an institution. They complain about unfair recruitment and promotion policies, injured officers who become "disposable", an emphasis on quotas instead of applying the law consistently, on politicization of policing priorities, and above all the city always settling cases against police misconduct so that accused officers never get a chance to clear their name in court, when innocent.

With this mindset, when they don't trust their own institution, the only people they trust are fellow officers -- not captains, not management, not the department, not the mayor. Which aligns with this article -- that Marines view the Marines as a trustworthy institution, while police don't see their own police department in the same light.

Now obviously police misconduct and brutality exist and are a huge problem. But the book very much opened my eyes to the idea that it's not only the behavior of police officers that needs better standards and accountability -- that treating police officers themselves better and more fairly may also be just as necessary to achieve full transparency and accountability. What if the "blue wall of silence" dissolved because police officers trusted their own institution, rather than just each other?

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Duty-Disillusion-Worldview-Off...

john-shaffer 2020-06-26 15:46 UTC link
> “A soldier is reasoning agent,” a military court explained in the 1991 case U.S. v. Kinder, in which a soldier who killed a civilian was convicted of murder on the grounds that his superior’s order to do so was obviously illegal and should have been reported.

This reference appears to be completely wrong. The case it links to is an appeal of drug dealing convictions.

The phrase "A soldier is a reasoning agent" appears in the 1973 case U.S. v. Calley [1] appealing Calley's conviction for murder at My Lai.

[1] https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/united-states-united-st...

frogpelt 2020-06-26 18:10 UTC link
How many government organizations (especially unionized ones) get rid of or otherwise deal with bad performers?

Instead of pointing out the military as the rule and police officers as the exception, maybe we should consider that the military is the exception.

Teachers, federal employees, and government employees at all levels of local government are known for being able to keep their jobs long after they should have been fired or disciplined.

The egregiousness of bad policing is that many times they are breaking laws. But honestly, there are gray areas. The police are allowed to hit some people. They have to shoot some people. So it's not a huge leap to assume that some of them will overstep their bounds. And when they do, the union will back them, and their colleagues will back them. And we'll hear how underpaid they are (just like teachers).

And they keep their jobs, just like bad teachers.

fchu 2020-06-26 18:33 UTC link
Given how police as an institution is failing, I wonder if there is a way to "reboot the system" (#RebootThePolice?) in a way that prevent bad culture to reproduce within.

Like building a new corps of police ("NeoPolice") alongside existing police with same responsibilities, but with a more stringent process on recruiting, training, internal culture, values, etc. And have it slowly supplement the old, dysfunctional police.

Some rationale: - When something is really broken, non amount of repair can fix it, you need a new thing. Shifting some policing responsibilities to other institutions (eg Defund the Police) might reduce the negative impact of a failing institution, but doesn't fix it. - We need a transition plan if we defund/abolish the police, and so far there is none to replace the police core responsibilities (around the use of force) - New competition drives innovation, and having a new police force can shine the line on how much better our experience of the product can be, driving further change.

It'll require strong, sustained leadership to build those institutions from scratch which will be difficult, given how police is mostly a local institution and the resulting outcome can vary greatly.

(For the curious, check how Brazil transitioned to a new currency to stop inertial inflation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor Similar mindset, albeit for a completely different domain)

dogman144 2020-06-26 20:55 UTC link
Really good article, but misses a large part of why military self-enforces well: integrity above all is a, or the value that is stressed-stressed-stressed.

The reasoning goes that while any UCMJ violation short of the big ones (abandoning post, AWOL, murder, etc.) is recoverable from with regards to career impact by a PCS (change bases you're stationed at), a new commander, whatever, the ONLY thing that will really sink you is lying.

You can recover from all sorts of failures. What you will never recover from is lying on a sworn statement about that failure.

Enforcement of UCMJ proves this out. Officers and Enlisted both follow this in various ways from small infractions to things that involve UCMJ. The service academies only have 1 non-crime that will really get you kicked out: honor violations. Etc. etc.

The interesting background aspect is Army values get pounded into you from Day 0, and Integrity is one of them. Legitimate corrective action will go around violating them from Basic Training all the way through the last day of your career. Not a lot of other orgs take organizational value lists that are on the proverbial office wall quite so seriously.

I'm almost positive the police do none of this approach, but also they don't have a federal police force really to enforce it top-down like the Army does.

edit grammar

scarface74 2020-06-26 22:07 UTC link
What I find so strange is that while I am no supporter of the military complex in the US, all of my ire is directed at the civilian oversight and not the military itself.

The military generals wanted to close bases that it didn’t need and that they thought was wasteful - the government wouldn’t close them because of the job loss.

The military leaders have said one of the biggest threats to our democracy is our ballooning national debt - I can’t find a quote from a general but you will find plenty of pro-military sites that agree. But yet the civilian government ignores the threat.

The military has plenty of weapon programs that it would love to mothball. But again, Senators are worried about job loss and they keep making weapons and selling them to foreign governments.

The government can spend billions on weapons that the military doesn’t need and private contractors but won’t equip soldiers with what they need.

There have been plenty of stories about how the civilian government has recently put soldiers health in danger for photo ops and exposing them to Covid unnecessarily. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/magazine/navy-captain-cro...)

rclayton 2020-06-27 15:06 UTC link
IMHO this article is nonsense. Even the Gallagher example contradicts the premise. The SEALs that reported him basically risked their careers in doing so.

The military may have laws/rules to report misconduct, but structurally, units are incentivized to hide misconduct (e.g. “handle internally”) because they don’t want the embarrassment. More importantly, failures by subordinates are often seen as leadership problems (you can make an argument that in many cases this is true) which mean officers and SNCOs are likely to sweep them under the rug if they can.

I saw many, many cases of this in the USMC. DUIs turned into “wet and reckless” because it involved a SNCO (an NCO or lower would have lost rank). NCOs (rightfully) pressing charges against subordinates for misconduct, only to be pressured by company/battalion leadership to accept “alternative punishment” (which often amounted to nothing). A let’s not even talk about all the case where there was sexual or physical abuse that went unreported despite everyone knowing it was happening.

The only time the military is motivated to act on misconduct is when it can’t hide it.

graycat 2020-06-27 16:09 UTC link
Okay, here I saw no mention of the relevant points in

"Executive Order on Safe Policing for Safe Communities"

June 16, 2020

at

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-or...

So, in short, "money talks"!

Yes, it's the money the DoJ has long been giving to local police departments to help them "protect and serve" and in general be pretty.

So, we get to set up a company, say, Local Police Audits, Inc. and a company Audits and Approvals, Inc. The second works to make sure the DOJ thinks they are pretty and, then, works to make sure the first is pretty; and then the first works to make sure the police departments, e.g., in Minneapolis, Atlanta, NYC, Baltimore, etc. are pretty, get a coveted, official pretty prize.

And if a police department does not get a pretty prize? Then the DoJ "will make them an offer they can't refuse" -- get a pretty prize or lose your DoJ money.

The Blue Line, police contracts, and police unions aside, this offer will be meaningful to the local mayor, town council, and maybe the local newspapers, voters, taxpayers, chief of police, the state governor, and even the mainstream media (MSM).

It's all right there in that executive order.

raxxorrax 2020-06-26 12:31 UTC link
I would have no problem with being a police officer in iceland, but certainly in the US. I get why they don't want to give up their guns, especially now, but that has consequences for policing work. If you can assume your "victim" to be unarmed, you approach the situation differently.

So I do think it is a quite dangerous job there to be honest. Moreso than the ones you mentioned. Some time ago deep sea fishing was the deadliest job. Would still prefer it from a risk assessment perspective.

hef19898 2020-06-26 12:32 UTC link
The higher ups created it, the average soldier was sacrificed for it. Doesn't change the fact, that the military has apparently better internal controls, better training and better rules of engagements. Even for some sorts of police work. The US military. Quite telling if you ask me.
frank2 2020-06-26 12:40 UTC link
I would worry more about PTSD than about death or injury if I was a cop.

Almost getting killed tends to cause PTSD, but the tendency is stronger if someone intentionally tried to kill you.

And doing violence to another person is also potent cause of PTSD.

For those 2 reasons, I would expect rates of PTSD to be higher among cops than among the other 15 occupations you list.

I would also worry that the habit of suspicion needed to be effective as a cop would be bad for my marriage and other relationships. In other words, I would worry that the work might make me pathologically cynical.

Finally, some people really enjoy having power over others and using that power to inflict pain. Even if the other disadvantages of police work did not exist, it might be wise for me to avoid it just to pessimize the probability of my needing to work with someone like that. It is a complicated issue, but certainly I find such people distasteful and suspect that most adults in my country (the US) share my distaste.

varjag 2020-06-26 12:44 UTC link
There 's really few tyrants left Assange has not been willing to support, screw him.
JumpCrisscross 2020-06-26 12:46 UTC link
> police unions that create the system within which police officers are protected

Police unions exacerbate the problem. But they aren't the root cause. Their leadership is supported by the rank and file. And police unions act much more antagonistically in comparison with other public unions.

PopeDotNinja 2020-06-26 12:48 UTC link
I used to sell life insurance. Dangerous careers would be more expensive. When I was an agent in 2004-2005 in the USA, being a police person was not considered dangerous enough to warrant a rate increase. As a professional wrestler, you'd be lucky to get life insurance at any price.
Spooky23 2020-06-26 12:53 UTC link
That’s because it’s focused on root cause.

Unions are boogeymen for these issues. They advocate for members by design so that is easy to do. The problems affecting police in states that prohibit collective bargaining for public employees or where private police are the same.

Zigurd 2020-06-26 12:59 UTC link
Police unions are a good indicator of how deep the problem runs. Police union bosses are elected. Google "police union boss" if you want to see a spittle flecked shouting goon defending the worst police behavior. This is the guy who won the most votes. This is how we know it is not "a few bad apples."

Nevertheless, the union is a symptom of a very deep problem that will not be solved by half measures. If you build a true public safety service to replace the police, you can expect their union to look normal, not like a big city police union.

alistairSH 2020-06-26 12:59 UTC link
Essentially cops spend most of their time with people who hate them

How much of policing is actually responding to violent crime vs traffic infractions or minor spats between neighbors?

That the general populace is afraid of cops is largely of the cops own doing. If they weren't power-hungry thugs, even when executing traffic enforcement, they wouldn't have this problem.

save_ferris 2020-06-26 13:02 UTC link
Not just that, but much of the hierarchy above police forces is opaque if it exists at all.

The Austin PD chief has come under intense scrutiny for his department's handling of various arrests and protests over the past few months, and after roughly half of the city council called on him to resign, it was reported that neither the city council or the mayor could legally fire him.[0]

The city manager, which is appointed and not elected, has the power to demote the police chief, but the state does not permit a police chief to be terminated.

Long story short, none of Austin's leaders have the power to fire the police chief.

0: https://www.texastribune.org/2020/06/18/austin-police-chief-...

edit: added reporting

fhqghds 2020-06-26 13:05 UTC link
The take away from this should be:

Look how fucking horrible behavior can be when even when the organization has a publicly stated stance of holding members accountable, and occasionally actually does so.

Now imagine the fucking horrible behavior that doesn't even manage to get surfaced in an organization that takes a public stance of not holding members or itself accountable.

The military is far far from perfect. The police still manage to be worse. And that's fucking terrifying.

willcipriano 2020-06-26 13:17 UTC link
>They are often paid quite well because its dangerous

2019 median pay for a police officer/detective: $65,170[0]

2019 median pay for high school teachers (often cited as underpaid): $61,660[1]

[0]https://www.bls.gov/ooh/protective-service/mobile/police-and...

[1]https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil...

gonzo41 2020-06-26 13:24 UTC link
This pretty much on the mark. I'd only add that even though the military is uber hierarchical, in good unit's it can be seem fairly flat. Everyone does PT together every day and when I was in the CO would be doing pushups and running with a section every morning. It's a closer team and less bureaucratic leadership so standards are kept in check by the collective. Even though there were pay and rank differences, everyone was in it together where in the police it seems very much like you're on your own.
VLM 2020-06-26 13:28 UTC link
Not since the 60s. On paper its possible in theory during an era of low application numbers to become an officer in an obscure location with various waivers if you're lucky, but in practice the requirements to actually get hired as a P.O. are the same as military OCS.

You pretty much need a clean and successful record with a bachelors degree for both paths.

Degree inflation is a real thing, similar to how receptionists in 2020 need a degree in "something" whereas in the old days high school was enough. Boomer generation cops could get hired with a mere high school diploma but that was 50 years ago.

onefuncman 2020-06-26 13:30 UTC link
If you get rid of bad cops you don't have to do anything to fix the unions.
kanox 2020-06-26 13:34 UTC link
Creating a new federal body to specifically deal with use-of-force by law enforcement could correct many issues by conducting investigates in a more impartial manner.

It could also issue nation-wide guidelines such as making it impossible to turn off body cameras.

082349872349872 2020-06-26 14:10 UTC link
I was thinking the opposite: the US military has "up or out", where one has to advance to stay in, tending to weed out bad apples in the officer corps. As far as I am aware, police have nothing similar (and furthermore, don't rotate). So my assessment is that it's much easier to get along to go along in US police forces than in their military.
astine 2020-06-26 14:28 UTC link
Chelsea Manning was not involved in the "collateral murder" leak.
nabilhat 2020-06-26 14:57 UTC link
The original source is the Bureau of Labor Statistics [0], which is a bottomless rabbit hole of detail.

Data quality side note... Others have pointed out before that a primary work related risk for nearly all of these professions is transportation. That's why the only landscapers we see on this list are the supervisors: supervisors are on the clock while they're behind the wheel, the workers aren't. Reading this data in a meaningful way requires consideration of transportation related risks.

[0] https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm

GVIrish 2020-06-26 15:06 UTC link
That's an interesting and I think valuable angle to all of this. Trust in institutions is absolutely key to the proper functioning of government, but it is also key to maintaining ethical behavior in any institution. If you can't trust your institution to do the right thing, it means you're less likely to speak up when there's wrong doing, and it emboldens those who commit wrongdoing. Over time one can see how this system calcifies into a culture of unaccountable behavior.

This is why the solution to police misconduct problems is going to require systemic change. There needs to be independent investigations and oversight of misconduct, and better systems to support whistleblowers. Those that are terminated for misconduct should not be reinstated and shouldn't be able to become officers elsewhere. In the military, you can't re-enlist if you've been dishonorably discharged, why should officers who abused their power be allowed to regain that power?

pjc50 2020-06-26 15:10 UTC link
Ironically this is "broken windows" theory applied to the police: if they don't see the rules fairly enforced inside their own organisation, how can they enforce them outside?
GVIrish 2020-06-26 15:14 UTC link
Not only that, but to join the military is to join a way of life. In the military your conduct is still governed by military regulations after you go home for the day. You can't just quit the military if you want a new job. You can be punished in your career for wrongdoing by one of your dependents. Your career can suffer for doing things in your off time that aren't illegal (adultery for example).

Not to say the military is perfect by any stretch. You still have your portion of GI's committing crimes and scandals at various levels of organization. And you still have problems someone of a higher rank can get away with stuff because of their power over subordinates. But by and large the military has much stronger mechanisms to maintain and enforce accountability than the average police department.

austincheney 2020-06-26 15:21 UTC link
That is completely and deliberately out of context. Manning released greater than 750,000 documents and almost all of them had nothing to do with violence of any kind. So much out of context that whistleblowing was never raised as any form of defense by Manning’s civilian attorney.
austincheney 2020-06-26 15:25 UTC link
Prosecution of sexual assaults in general is abysmal.
Shivetya 2020-06-26 16:39 UTC link
and these same city officials, especially mayors, are politically connected to their police departments doubly so if they are unionized; not all police are unionized. politicians learn real fast to not go up against any organization backed by a public employee union. police and educators are the absolute worst in this regard.

I keep looking back at how many bemoan corporate money in politics and how references that Citizen's United was the cause but completely ignore that DNC platform while supporting that completely ignores these unions contributing; in fact one certain Senator's webpage is explicit in only using corporation examples. Hell that same person wants you to pay for the DNC and RNC conventions; its criminal we pay for their convention security as is

Simple reason, when people are paid by tax coffers that means their unions are and in turn it just becomes one giant slush fund for politicians who want to remain in power.

snowwrestler 2020-06-26 16:57 UTC link
I think it's important to understand the extent to which this is a culture, i.e. self-perpetuating in spite of outside influences.

While your comment explains the origin of this culture... it's generally not as easy to change such a culture as it is to maintain it. Once a group of people believe that the rest of the world does not understand them or is against them, they are somewhat inoculated against efforts by the rest of the world to change them.

New officers spend most of their time with older officers, not department leadership, not the mayor, not journalists, not activists, etc. Older officers teach younger officers how to act, and to some extent, what to believe. And, they act collectively to punish new officers who fail to adhere to this culture.

This is well-enough known to become a storytelling trope: a young idealistic officer finds him- or herself facing not only criminals, but also the cultural inertia of the disillusioned existing police force, as they try to do the right thing.

In many contexts, we accept that organizations have to end, and be replaced, to enact meaningful change. Companies go out business; political administrations lose elections.

This is why the idea of "abolish the police" or "defund the police" might not be as crazy as it sounds on its surface. It's not that we don't need people who are paid to investigate crime and keep people safe... obviously we do. But police forces as they currently exist may have too much cultural inertia to evolve the way they need to.

glenstein 2020-06-26 17:38 UTC link
I have frequently seen police compared unfavorably to the military in recent weeks. I have never served, but everything I've seen about how the military handles use of force and how it handles incidents of violent misconduct suggest a standard that police units, at their worst, do not adhere to.
GordonS 2020-06-26 18:06 UTC link
With the military, it ses to depend on the scale.

If it's one bad actor, they'll get court marshalled. If it's several (e.g. Abu Graib; possibly misspelled), or if it's systemic (e.g. no care whatsoever for collateral damage, such as shooting civilians or bombing schools and hospitals), then the powers that be will stop at nothing to cover it up or play it down.

neonate 2020-06-26 18:32 UTC link
That's interesting, but may not apply to the difference between military and police. My impression, confirmed by a family member who was in the army, is that soldiers are typically cynical about the military as an institution, and their loyalty is to fellow soldiers in their unit. It may in fact be typical of people in any large organization that their loyalty is to their team and not the institution. We're tribal creatures that way. And being subject to danger together strengthens bonding.
pdonis 2020-06-26 18:36 UTC link
> Given how police as an institution is failing

I don't think we can consider "police" as a single institution, or in isolation. The character of the police in a particular locality depends on the local government of that locality. If the police are corrupt, it is because the local government is corrupt. That is going to vary widely from locality to locality, and fixing it cannot be a matter of simply changing the police alone; it has to be a matter of changing the local government.

Editorial Channel
What the content says
+0.80
Article 7 Equality Before Law
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.80
SETL
ND

CENTRAL THEME. Entire article advocates that military system achieves equality before law (all ranks held accountable) while police system violates it (rank provides protection). Direct comparison framing military approach as more just.

+0.70
Article 3 Life, Liberty, Security
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Strong advocacy for accountability when military/police misconduct results in death of civilians or detainees. Gallagher case (killing teenage detainee) presented as wrongdoing warranting prosecution. Police killings of unarmed suspects framed as abuse requiring accountability.

+0.70
Article 6 Legal Personhood
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Key provision. Military law explicitly recognizes soldiers as legal persons responsible for their actions. Contrasts with police system where officers are treated as group members rather than individually accountable legal persons.

+0.70
Article 8 Right to Remedy
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Advocates for judicial remedies as essential safeguard. Discusses courts-martial system, civilian oversight, and due process protections as mechanisms for securing effective remedy.

+0.70
Article 10 Fair Hearing
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

Advocates for fair trial protections. Discusses military court due process safeguards, civilian oversight, and structural reforms ensuring impartiality (O'Callahan case limiting commander influence; 1987 restoration requiring structural protections).

+0.70
Article 29 Duties to Community
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.70
SETL
ND

CENTRAL THEME. Entire article contrasts institutional vs personal loyalty. Military culture prioritizes duty to institution (what is right, what upholds military integrity) over personal relationships. Police culture violates institutional duty by protecting members. Strong advocacy for institutional accountability.

+0.60
Article 1 Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Explicitly advocates for treating individuals as reasoning agents responsible for their own decisions. Cites military court ruling: 'A soldier is reasoning agent' and criticizes implicit assumption that soldiers must obey all orders without moral judgment.

+0.60
Article 5 No Torture
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Condemns Abu Ghraib mistreatment of detainees ('badly mistreated detainees') and frames accountability for cruel treatment as necessary. Presents military accountability system as corrective mechanism.

+0.60
Article 9 No Arbitrary Detention
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
ND

Advocates against arbitrary arrest and excessive force. Specific examples: police 'punching suspects for fun' (Serpico); 'brutal beat' of 'handcuffed suspect' (Crystal). Framed as wrongdoing requiring accountability.

+0.60
Article 19 Freedom of Expression
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.60
SETL
+0.49

Advocates for freedom to report wrongdoing and condemns suppression of speech through retaliation. Positive framing of Gallagher's colleagues reporting him, Serpico and Crystal reporting misconduct. Frames 'blue wall of silence' as suppression of essential speech.

+0.50
Preamble Preamble
High Advocacy
Editorial
+0.50
SETL
ND

Article implicitly endorses UDHR foundational principles (dignity, rule of law, accountability) through comparison of two institutional approaches to justice and wrongdoing.

+0.40
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay
Medium Advocacy
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
ND

Discusses wrongful employment retaliation. Joe Crystal demoted, threatened, harassed for reporting misconduct; forced to quit. Framed as unjust retaliation for protected speech/whistleblowing.

+0.40
Article 26 Education
Medium Coverage
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
+0.28

Article educates about military vs police accountability systems, explaining legal structures, institutional ethics, and governance mechanisms. Improves public understanding of complex institutional dynamics.

+0.40
Article 28 Social & International Order
Medium Framing
Editorial
+0.40
SETL
ND

References Nuremberg trials as legal precedent for holding individuals accountable for military misconduct. Implicit advocacy for international rule of law and accountability even for powerful actors.

+0.30
Article 21 Political Participation
Medium Framing
Editorial
+0.30
SETL
ND

Implicitly advocates for limits on executive interference in military judicial system. Trump's Gallagher intervention presented as concerning breach of military independence ('almost certainly influenced the outcome').

ND
Article 2 Non-Discrimination

Not addressed in article.

ND
Article 4 No Slavery

Not addressed.

ND
Article 11 Presumption of Innocence

Not addressed.

ND
Article 12 Privacy

Not addressed in article content.

ND
Article 13 Freedom of Movement

Not addressed.

ND
Article 14 Asylum

Not addressed.

ND
Article 15 Nationality

Not addressed.

ND
Article 16 Marriage & Family

Not addressed.

ND
Article 17 Property

Not addressed.

ND
Article 18 Freedom of Thought

Not addressed.

ND
Article 20 Assembly & Association

Not directly addressed (implicit discussion of 'group think' vs institutional loyalty, but not focused on freedom of association).

ND
Article 22 Social Security

Not addressed.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

Not addressed.

ND
Article 25 Standard of Living
Medium

Not addressed in article content.

ND
Article 27 Cultural Participation
Medium

Not directly addressed.

ND
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights

Not applicable.

Structural Channel
What the site does
Element Modifier Affects Note
Legal & Terms
Privacy -0.05
Article 12
The Conversation operates on a freemium model with cookie/tracking infrastructure visible in page config (GTM tracking), suggesting data collection practices that may not fully center user privacy control.
Terms of Service
No observable terms of service content on the article page itself.
Identity & Mission
Mission +0.15
Article 19 Article 27
The Conversation's core mission is to democratize expert knowledge through accessible publishing, directly supporting freedom of expression and cultural participation.
Editorial Code +0.08
Article 19 Article 20
Academic editorial review and contributor expertise signals editorial integrity supporting informed speech and reasoned public discourse.
Ownership
Ownership structure not visible on article page; operates as nonprofit academic publishing platform.
Access & Distribution
Access Model +0.12
Article 19 Article 25
Free access to all articles ('article_type: free') removes economic barriers to information and supports equitable access to knowledge.
Ad/Tracking -0.08
Article 12
GTM analytics infrastructure and ad network integration visible in page config; user behavioral tracking present.
Accessibility +0.10
Article 25 Article 26
The Conversation provides free, open-access academic commentary to general audiences, removing barriers to information and promoting universal access to education-adjacent content.
+0.20
Article 19 Freedom of Expression
High Advocacy
Structural
+0.20
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.49

Article accessible for free; republication explicitly permitted; diverse expert perspectives supported by platform structure.

+0.20
Article 26 Education
Medium Coverage
Structural
+0.20
Context Modifier
ND
SETL
+0.28

Free expert academic content on governance and institutional systems; platform democratizes expert knowledge about law and ethics.

ND
Preamble Preamble
High Advocacy

Not applicable to preamble.

ND
Article 1 Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 2 Non-Discrimination

Not addressed.

ND
Article 3 Life, Liberty, Security
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 4 No Slavery

Not addressed.

ND
Article 5 No Torture
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 6 Legal Personhood
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 7 Equality Before Law
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 8 Right to Remedy
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 9 No Arbitrary Detention
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 10 Fair Hearing
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 11 Presumption of Innocence

Not addressed.

ND
Article 12 Privacy

Not addressed at article level (domain-level tracking infrastructure in DCP).

ND
Article 13 Freedom of Movement

Not addressed.

ND
Article 14 Asylum

Not addressed.

ND
Article 15 Nationality

Not addressed.

ND
Article 16 Marriage & Family

Not addressed.

ND
Article 17 Property

Not addressed.

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Article 18 Freedom of Thought

Not addressed.

ND
Article 20 Assembly & Association

Not addressed.

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Article 21 Political Participation
Medium Framing

Not applicable.

ND
Article 22 Social Security

Not addressed.

ND
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay
Medium Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

Not addressed.

ND
Article 25 Standard of Living
Medium

Free access to expert analysis removes economic barriers to understanding governance/accountability systems.

ND
Article 27 Cultural Participation
Medium

Platform structure enables broad participation in cultural discourse through expert-authored, publicly accessible analysis.

ND
Article 28 Social & International Order
Medium Framing

Not applicable.

ND
Article 29 Duties to Community
High Advocacy

Not applicable.

ND
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights

Not applicable.

Supplementary Signals
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Epistemic Quality
How well-sourced and evidence-based is this content?
0.81 medium claims
Sources
0.8
Evidence
0.8
Uncertainty
0.7
Purpose
0.9
Propaganda Flags
No manipulative rhetoric detected
0 techniques detected
Emotional Tone
Emotional character: positive/negative, intensity, authority
measured
Valence
+0.3
Arousal
0.5
Dominance
0.6
Transparency
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1.00
✓ Author ✓ Conflicts ✓ Funding
More signals: context, framing & audience
Solution Orientation
Does this content offer solutions or only describe problems?
0.36 problem only
Reader Agency
0.3
Stakeholder Voice
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0.42 3 perspectives
Speaks: governmentinstitutionindividuals
About: militarypolicedetaineescivilians
Temporal Framing
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mixed historical
Geographic Scope
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national
United States, Iraq, Vietnam
Complexity
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moderate medium jargon general
Longitudinal · 4 evals
+1 0 −1 HN
Audit Trail 24 entries
2026-02-28 12:19 eval Evaluated by claude-haiku-4-5-20251001: +0.58 (Moderate positive)
2026-02-28 12:05 eval_success Lite evaluated: Moderate positive (0.40) - -
2026-02-28 12:05 rater_validation_warn Lite validation warnings for model llama-4-scout-wai: 0W 1R - -
2026-02-28 12:05 eval Evaluated by llama-4-scout-wai: +0.40 (Moderate positive)
reasoning
Editorial discusses police misconduct and military accountability
2026-02-28 12:02 eval_success Lite evaluated: Moderate positive (0.50) - -
2026-02-28 12:02 eval Evaluated by llama-3.3-70b-wai: +0.50 (Moderate positive)
reasoning
Editorial exposes abuse
2026-02-28 12:02 rater_validation_warn Lite validation warnings for model llama-3.3-70b-wai: 0W 1R - -
2026-02-26 19:31 eval_success Evaluated: Neutral (0.39) - -
2026-02-26 19:31 eval Evaluated by deepseek-v3.2: +0.39 (Neutral) 16,918 tokens
2026-02-26 12:20 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 12:18 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 12:17 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 12:16 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 10:14 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:12 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:12 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:11 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:11 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:11 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:10 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:09 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:08 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:08 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -
2026-02-26 10:05 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Why the US military usually punishes misconduct but police often close ranks - -